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2006 World Cup Score Board & News Central [Closed]
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Soccer Fan
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 10:31 am    Post subject: Golden Ball Reply with quote

Visitor wrote:
I did not like it when they gave him the "golden ball" because it looked like he got rewarded for bad behavior. The guy has a history of violence. Smile


Golden Ball rewards talent and performance, not self-control. Zidane earned that award, he's a superb player.

But FIFA seems to agree with Visitor, they're threatening to take the award away from Zidane though it was given him by journalists, not by FIFA. I wonder if legally they can take away something that they didn't award?
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Visitor
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear friends,

First of all, let me say that I'm not a football(soccer) fan myself. My knowledge of the game is very limited and that disqualifies me to talk about technical stuff here. I totally agree with X that the problem is bigger than just one guy and one incidence. The world today is so extreme, for instance in sport, you try to win with all costs. But I really think that somehow you have to live up to your level. A great player cannot behave like trash and still get the award. What kind of the message we send here? Do we say, well we do not care how bad you are; play well and you're rewarded?

I know that I cannot argue with you, Les Bleus, you seem to be one of the diehard fans of Zidane. But I'm not talking about him alone. This incidence is just one more to show that we have a big problem in our world now a day.

Soccer fan, I hope that they can take it away from him and do to send a strong message to the rest of them. Smile
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LesBleus
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 4:05 pm    Post subject: Is that fair? Reply with quote

Visitor wrote:
Soccer fan, I hope that they can take it away from him and do to send a strong message to the rest of them. Smile


Disregard a whole career of achievement against very bad odds (racism, poverty, etc.) because the guy lost his cool because his mother and/or his sister or whole family was insulted? Is that fair?

Materazzi finally admitted he did insult Zidane. The Italians wanted to win at all costs, fair or not.

Plus, so many bad behaviors were either not seen or overlooked during the whole WC match, why penalize one guy for one crazy moment? Remember, he'd been hurt physically, he'd been grabbed, he'd been insulted - the worst insult for an Arab, the honor of his womenfolk and his family. What would YOU have done, Visitor?

I'm siding with Zidane, not so much because I'm a "diehard fan" - actually though Beckham didn't play that well this time around, I like Beckham better than "Zizou" - but because I'm trying to be fair. Italians played dirty all round. Their defense was excellent, but their footwork was nothing compared to the French's. Zidane lost the competition for the French, there's no doubt about it. That, in my opinion, should be enough punishment, he's not gonna be able to live with himself after this. French public think so too, they're supporting him, as is "Friend of Fleur" who, as it happens, is not French or even European, he's an African, and not even from former French African colonies (I got this particular item from Fleur. She told me her friend is Egyptian). Very Happy Lots of people I talked to agree that French played much better than Italians. The insult was a dirty trick. I'm sorry it worked, and I agree Zidane is to blame for losing it. But that shouldn't obliterate the achievements of a lifetime.
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Fleur
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 4:26 pm    Post subject: Zidane finally spoke... Reply with quote

... to French Canal+ channel today. He apologized to fans and children who were watching but expressed no regrets. He thinks the blame goes to Materazzi who insulted his mother and sister, though he didn't give any details. He also pointed out that the Italians repeatedly derided the French team for being made up of "Blacks, Arabs and Communists".

He said he took Materazzi's attacks once, twice, but the third time was too much and he snapped.

Italians are notorious for racist remarks and fascist posturing. If Zidane is to be punished for reacting violently to slurs against his family, then the Italians should be penalized for provocation.

Visitor, your vision is too simplistic. Try putting yourself in the shoes of a minority person who has been insulted and see how you feel. And don't give me that jazz about "history of violence". Give me a break. Portuguese, Italians and others have been a lot more violent than the French have. Not that the French are pure as the driven slush, but they're no worse than others and better than quite a lot.
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Yellow and Blue
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 4:50 pm    Post subject: Black and White in Color Reply with quote

Fleur wrote:
Visitor, your vision is too simplistic.


Right on. Typical American Puritan view (dunno whether Visitor is American-born but certainly has "American values" and unrealistic expectations). Politicians should not cheat on their wives, sportsmen should never lose control of their tempers whatever the provocation, heroes must be saints. Wake up into the real world, Visitor! Rolling Eyes

As Jesus said, let him (or her) who never sinned cast the first stone. Visitor, did you never lose your temper when provoked? And do you have at least the excuse of great talent as extenuating circumstances? Gee, it's so easy to be critical when one doesn't even know what was involved. You weren't there on the pitch, you hadn't had your arm badly hurt, you hadn't been playing your heart out for over a month, you didn't hear your family called names. What gives you the right to pass judgment?
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X



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 856
Location: Lala Land

PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yellow and Blue, calm down if you are not. We're all giving our own opinions which matter squat to the real situation. Very Happy

I sympathize with ZZ one the view Yellow pointed out, but sympathy is one thing, real world operation is another.

What strikes me as interesting is why fluer and Yellow are so quick to accept everything from ZZ as the truth. I for one would support ZZ if that's the truth of the matter. One headbutt is far less severe than a single racist remark on an international stage.


Edit: ok, Fluer made me curious about what ZZ's got to say. So, I went and read it from SI.com.

True to what I suggested that ZZ should not have said anything because what he said is just about nothing, or worse revealing his arrogance.

So according to ZZ, MM insulted his mom and sister, and not his heritage specifically, all of which MM is readily denying. But at least we know at worst it was an insult to ZZ's family. So, how bad the insult was is not something both guys are ready to disclose. But they are smart not to do so. For MM, it'd only reveal his ugliness. For ZZ he'd be judged base on the intense of the provoke, and it would probably not in favor of ZZ. Hence, he's not disclosing it though he still very much wants to shift blame to MM (implying that MM's provoke is deserved). Plus ZZ said he didn't regret. Sorry ZZ, you can't have it both ways. Either share with people MM's comment to justify your action (if such an action can be justified) or accept your wrongdoing, regret and apologize.

But none of that happened.

So, we're back to square 1, which is ZZ's violent act, which is the only sure thing everyone has seen. The only real development here is ZZ didn't regret his action and it wasn't about racism from MM's part (ZZ himself acknowledged that, too). Nothing both of these guys said about each other worths anything for right minded folks anyway.

Sigh, ZZ should have stopped right after apologizing and let people decide for themselves.
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Fleur
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 11:19 pm    Post subject: Lost in Translation Reply with quote

It's quite a different thing to read the translation - more or less accurate - of an interview and to see it in the original, with the facial expression, body language and the interviewee's own words.

I still think Zidane should have controlled himself better considering everything that was at stake, but after seeing his interview I now totally understand him. For him it was a matter of his honor as a man. He let Materazzi get away with his insults twice, walked away from him, but footage from Argentinian tv showed clearly that after having grabbed his jersey and spoken into Zidane's face, and after Zidane walked away, Materazzi followed him and repeated his insults twice. Without saying exactly what the words were, Zizou did say that they involved his womenfolk.

He is deeply sorry and readily and ruefully admits that his gesture was "inexcusable" (his word) but he does not regret what he did because if he expressed regret, in his eyes it would mean that Materazzi was right in what he was saying.

You had to see the pain on his face when he asked the interviewer "Do you think that 10 minutes from the end of my career I took any pleasure in doing this?"

I'm still sorry his gesture cost France the game and the Cup, and cost Zidane his popularity outside France (the French are much more understanding of him because they saw him and heard him directly, not through a translator on cold paper - or cold computer screen) and may cost him the Golden Ball, but I now support him more than I did before. The French were right in lighting up the Arc de Triomphe with "Zizou on t'aime", even before Zidane spoke out.
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It'sMax
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 11:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Lost in Translation Reply with quote

Fleur wrote:
It's quite a different thing to read the translation - more or less accurate - of an interview and to see it in the original, with the facial expression, body language and the interviewee's own words.


I saw the interview but since I don't understand French I had to go with the subtitles. Still, what I saw was, on one hand, this man, the pain on his face clear to see, who was defending what he saw as his honor and that of his family and on the other that yahoo Materazzi saying he's so ignorant he doesn't know what an "Islamist terrorist" is and who took three days to admit he did insult his opponent. Who is more credible?
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Xuân Phong



Joined: 05 Mar 2005
Posts: 962
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:17 pm    Post subject: Zidane's interview Reply with quote

X wrote:
True to what I suggested that ZZ should not have said anything because what he said is just about nothing, or worse revealing his arrogance.


I couldn't see any arrogance in him during the interview, before or after. He was subdued and deeply affected. He would not SAY he regretted his headbutt, because he didn't want to give Materazzi the satisfaction or the impression that he had been right. Doesn't mean he's not deeply sorry the whole thing happened.
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Fleur
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:27 pm    Post subject: Arab culture Reply with quote

Also, don't forget Materazzi repeated his insults three times. In Arab culture that's very significant. For example, if a man wants to send one of his wives away, all he has to do is tell her "I divorce (or "disown") you" three times. There doesn't even have to have witnesses, one little phrase repeated three times and the woman's out on the street, homeless, husbandless, helpless. I know a Moroccan woman whose husband divorced her and believe me, her life was a living hell until her brother got her out of the country.

Whatever the insults were, Zidane stood it twice, but the third time, as an Arab man he had to react or he wouldn't have been able to face his family and himself.

About Arab culture among the Arab immigrants in France, I had some interesting experiences last time I was there a few weeks ago. Will tell you about it another time, it has nothing to do with football.

Hoa/Flower
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