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Marriage - Happy, Open or Dead
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LadyOnTheMoon



Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 954
Location: On the Moon

PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 7:13 pm    Post subject: Marriage - Happy, Open or Dead Reply with quote

Admin's Note - This discussion veered hopelessly off-topic in the Politix sub-forum. We can now debate that thorny subject here.

Wildflower wrote:
As to Clinton and the other philanderers - the only people who have a right to say anything are their wives. Jackie Kennedy bore it gracefully (I suppose she could not not know), Danièle Mitterrand let her husband's mistress and illegitimate daughter show up in public with her at his funeral, Hollande's so-called "First Lady" had a nervous breakdown and then wrote an vengeful book. I surmise that Hillary knew exactly what she was doing. She may even have an "open marriage" arrangement with Bill Clinton. What was important to her was being First Lay, then have the whole Clinton machine help her in her political career. If she thought putting up with his infidelity was worth it, that's her decision. *shrug*

Some women put up with their husbands' philandering, or stay in marriages that are dead to all intents and purposes, either "for the sake of the children" (which is bunk, it's not good for a child to live in a household where love has died and there's constant bickering, where they are living a lie - I know such cases, where the kids left home as soon as they possibly could because they could not bear it) or, more often than not, because the women want to keep the standing of being "Mrs. So and So", not have the stigmata of a divorce, but most of all because they're keeping at their disposal a live-in, unpaid, computer expert, pool boy, garage mechanic, gardener, plumber, electrician, house painter, snow shoveler, sometimes even cook, errand boy, etc. Women used to that won't let go, they wouldn't be able to live as comfortably by themselves, would have to call a garagist, a plumber, whatever. Why go through that inconvenience when you can keep said pool boy, computer geek, etc. in the house with emotional blackmail or other kind of pressure? Besides, because he feels guilty, the husband is extra-nice to his wife. It's a win-win situation for her, especially when there is no love left in the marriage. If there were, if she hadn't already lost him, the husband wouldn't stray, would he? If he's not a philanderer/womanizer à la Clinton or Mitterrand, that is. If he were, the wife probably knew it, or discovered it soon enough after the marriage. In either case she accepted it, constant womanizing or one lover, deeming the trade-off worth it. I'm afraid I don't have much sympathy to spare for those women.
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Vixen



Joined: 05 Aug 2007
Posts: 345
Location: Belgium

PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 9:11 pm    Post subject: You can't steal love Reply with quote

All those song lyrics like "My friend stole my sweetheart from me" are all so much nonsense. A person is not an object you can steal. If you take away someone from their current partner, married or not, it means the relationship was already on the rocks.

Like LadyontheMoon said, we'll put aside the philanderers, butterflies who go from flower to flower as a matter of course. But in a monogamous relationship (not necessarily "sanctified" by holy matrimony), if you "take away" one of the partners, it means that he or she was ready to go. You can't "steal" someone who really loves his/her mate.
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inkling7
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Joined: 01 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 11:06 pm    Post subject: Cheating Reply with quote

Cheating doesn't necessarily mean only physical cheating either. One can cheat emotionally by seeing other people in a romantic way... Let s/he that is without sin cast the first stone?
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Angelina



Joined: 09 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 3:27 am    Post subject: Chaste relationship Reply with quote

inkling7 wrote:
Cheating doesn't necessarily mean only physical cheating either. One can cheat emotionally by seeing other people in a romantic way... Let s/he that is without sin cast the first stone?

A chaste relationship is not a sin. Even Laurelluin would agree with that.

Believe it or not, it is possible to share a bed with someone you love without making love.
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Wildflower



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
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Location: Shuttling between France and the US

PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 3:28 am    Post subject: You can't steal love Reply with quote

Vixen wrote:
But in a monogamous relationship (not necessarily "sanctified" by holy matrimony), if you "take away" one of the partners, it means that he or she was ready to go. You can't "steal" someone who really loves his/her mate.

Agreement without reservation. When Bill my husband was alive, no one and nothing could "steal" him away from me. Only Death could.
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Wildflower



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
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Location: Shuttling between France and the US

PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 3:31 am    Post subject: Relationships Reply with quote

Angelina wrote:
A chaste relationship is not a sin. Even Laurelluin would agree with that.

Believe it or not, it is possible to share a bed with someone you love without making love.

Absolutely.

This was way before I met my husband. I actually shared a bed in a hotel room on an island paradise (actually, two island paradises - I followed him from St. Croix to Bermuda) with a man I loved and who loved me. We cuddled and kissed and slept in each other's arms, but it never went further. It was one of the most beautiful loves of my life. We knew our love had no tomorrow, so it was better not getting too physical. But we had enough, and for a short time we were very happy. Hearts

I also toured Brazil for three weeks, sharing hotel rooms with a male friend. But that time, it was strictly friendship. We took rooms with two beds. Very Happy
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inkling7
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Joined: 01 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 11:56 am    Post subject: Tangled web Reply with quote

Yes all that is possible but if you love the other person and have lost feelings for your current spouse then that is a way of cheating because you are staying for children or other reasons and really if the love has died then one should do the right thing and get out of a relationship like that and go to the person they really want to be with because the cheating is emotional even though it isn't physical... However it is known that some people have casual sex with others but it means nothing else to them too and they really love their spouse.. Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive.. one way or another anyway...
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Anémone



Joined: 04 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2016 3:47 am    Post subject: Staying in a dead marriage Reply with quote

LadyOnTheMoon wrote:
Some women put up with their husbands' philandering, or stay in marriages that are dead to all intents and purposes, either "for the sake of the children" (which is bunk, it's not good for a child to live in a household where love has died and there's constant bickering, where they are living a lie - I know such cases, where the kids left home as soon as they possibly could because they could not bear it) or, more often than not, because the women want to keep the standing of being "Mrs. So and So", not have the stigmata of a divorce, but most of all because they're keeping at their disposal a live-in, unpaid, computer expert, pool boy, garage mechanic, gardener, plumber, electrician, house painter, snow shoveler, sometimes even cook, errand boy, etc. Women used to that won't let go, they wouldn't be able to live as comfortably by themselves, would have to call a garagist, a plumber, whatever. Why go through that inconvenience when you can keep said pool boy, computer geek, etc. in the house with emotional blackmail or other kind of pressure? Besides, because he feels guilty, the husband is extra-nice to his wife. It's a win-win situation for her, especially when there is no love left in the marriage. If there were, if she hadn't already lost him, the husband wouldn't stray, would he? If he's not a philanderer/womanizer à la Clinton or Mitterrand, that is. If he were, the wife probably knew it, or discovered it soon enough after the marriage. In either case she accepted it, constant womanizing or one lover, deeming the trade-off worth it. I'm afraid I don't have much sympathy to spare for those women.

I agree with "no sympathy" for these women who cling to a dead marriage for the wrong reasons, though I can also understand their point of view and their attitude. I know a couple just like that, she's staying because her life is much easier this way: he does everything from repairing computers to cleaning the pool to shopping for groceries, cooking, plus working his regular job, she does less and less, holding him through his guilt - whereas she does nothing, not even work outside the home, or inside for that matter, she lost her job a few years ago. He stays out of a sense of duty, and out of the habit of several decades of life together, out of guilt for having strayed, and because she stuck by him in the early years when he had problems with his job and with money. But now out of sheer spite she makes his life miserable, he stays anyway. He's one of the really true masochists I ever knew.
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LadyOnTheMoon



Joined: 24 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2016 5:44 pm    Post subject: This seems to be a "Hen thread", LOL Reply with quote

Every poster in this thread, up to now, is a woman. Don't our male fellow members have anything to say on the matter? bleh
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Du Khach
Herald


Joined: 30 Aug 2007
Posts: 1144
Location: Aboard my spaceship

PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2016 6:13 pm    Post subject: Discretion is the better part of valor! Reply with quote

Quote:
Don't our male fellow members have anything to say on the matter?
Discretion is the better part of valor! LOL!!

Seriously, though. It's a bit different in Vietnamese society, where men are allowed "năm thê bảy thiếp" (five wives and seven, um, handmaidens?) - At least in the older generations. I know very few Vietnamese men over 50 who haven't strayed from the marital bed. Even set up their mistresses in houses of apartments, even here in the US. Their wives know, and accept it more or less graciously. I don't know if it's the same thing in Europe. I think not. It's certainly not the case for the younger generation. They are too westernized.

Even the older generation, when they have had a Western education, they tend to follow the Western mores. My own mother, though traditional in other fields - like, never outshine her husband in public, always look submissive (though she was anything but) - did not tolerate infidelity in my father.

It's funny, I know a couple almost exactly like the one Anémone describes. Here in California. It couldn't be the same people, could it, Anémone? Are the people you are talking about Vietnamese? Seems like that situation is not uncommon.

Me, I'm like President Carter. I love my wife, and though I may have looked at beautiful women with desire in my heart (and, um, elsewhere), I never gave in to the impulse.
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