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The "Richard III Is Innocent" controversy
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Kim



Joined: 01 Jan 2010
Posts: 257
Location: Wandering Around

PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 11:22 pm    Post subject: Royal Blood Reply with quote

Kerowyn wrote:
However, I do recommend Bertram Fields' "Royal Blood". Give it a try, I think you'll like it.

I did, and you're right. It's as good a read as any modern courtroom drama we see on the shelves. Thanks for the recommendation.
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Wildflower



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
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Location: Shuttling between France and the US

PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 1:48 am    Post subject: A different theory Reply with quote

I'm into a whole new batch of books on this subject, the one I'm currently reading is Philippa Gregory's "The White Princess", the story of Elizabeth of York, daughter of Edward IV and wife to Henry VII.

Philippa Gregory has a theory that I hadn't heard before: that when Elizabeth Woodville released her son Richard from sanctuary so that he could join his brother Edward in the Tower of London, she actually switched him with a page boy who looked a bit like him, and smuggled the real Richard out into hiding in mainland Europe, probably Flanders, where he took on the name "Perkin Warbeck".

It's clever but I don't think it can hold water. Richard III would know his nephew from an impostor, and Edward, the elder of the Princes, would certainly know his brother!! He wouldn't have known his mother would send an ersatz and he would have let the cat out of the bag.

But, as is said in the other thread, Ms. Gregory has to come up with diffferent "takes" on history, since there are so many theories floating around about the fate of the two princes.

Since they unearthed Richard III's body a few years ago, there's been quite a number of books on him and on the mystery of the princes. The bunch of books I'm into at the moment have for the most part been written after 2010.
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Girl_on_Fire



Joined: 19 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 2:25 am    Post subject: Re: A different theory Reply with quote

Wildflower wrote:
Philippa Gregory has a theory that I hadn't heard before: that when Elizabeth Woodville released her son Richard from sanctuary so that he could join his brother Edward in the Tower of London, she actually switched him with a page boy who looked a bit like him, and smuggled the real Richard out into hiding in mainland Europe, probably Flanders, where he took on the name "Perkin Warbeck".

It's clever but I don't think it can hold water. Richard III would know his nephew from an impostor, and Edward, the elder of the Princes, would certainly know his brother!! He wouldn't have known his mother would send an ersatz and he would have let the cat out of the bag.

I don't see that working either. I'm more with the theory that both boys were secreted out by Richard's order and sent to safety somewhere abroad.

It's possible that Edward either died of natural causes, or maybe was the real prince behind the Simnell rebellion. I feel quite sure Perkin Warbeck was indeed Richard of York. In the portraits that exist of him, he's the spit image of Edward IV.
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Mr. Write



Joined: 21 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 3:31 pm    Post subject: Ricardian books Reply with quote

Wildflower wrote:
Since they unearthed Richard III's body a few years ago, there's been quite a number of books on him and on the mystery of the princes. The bunch of books I'm into at the moment have for the most part been written after 2010.

Could you give us a list? Should be an interesting bibliography. Very Happy
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Wildflower



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
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Location: Shuttling between France and the US

PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 11:44 am    Post subject: Re: Ricardian books Reply with quote

Mr. Write wrote:
Could you give us a list? Should be an interesting bibliography. Very Happy

These are the books I bought recently, I haven't read them all yet:

* Richard III: The Maligned King, by Carson, Annette

* The Lost Prince: The Survival of Richard of York, by Baldwin, David

* Richard of England, by Kleyn, D.M. (this is about Richard of York, the younger of the Princes in the Tower)

* Richard III, by Baldwin, David

On top of these, I got some recommendations from Amazon, that also look interesting:

* Richard III and the Murder in the Tower by Peter A. Hancock

Quote:
When Edward IV died in 1483, the Yorkist succession was called into question by doubts about the legitimacy of his son, Edward (one of the "Princes in the Tower"). The crown passed to Edward's undoubtedly legitimate younger brother, Richard, Duke of Gloucester. But those who believed in the legitimacy of Edward IV’s children viewed Richard III’s accession with suspicion. From the day when Edward IV married Eleanor, or pretended to do so, the House of York confronted an uncertain future. This book argues that Eleanor Talbot was married to Edward IV, therefore Edward’s subsequent marriage to Elizabeth Woodville was bigamous, making her children illegitimate. It also offers a solution to one of history's great mysteries, by putting forward groundbreaking new evidence that calls into question the identity of the "bones in the urn" in Westminster Abbey, believed for centuries to be the remains of the "Princes in the Tower."

* The Secret Queen: Eleanor Talbot, the Woman Who Put Richard III on the throne, by John Ashdown-Hill
(This is the story of Lady Eleanor Butler, née Talbot, who Edward IV was married to before he married Elizabeth Woodville)

* The Mythology of Richard III, by John Ashdown-Hill

Quote:
Richard III. The name will conjure an image for any reader. Shakespeare’s hunchback tyrant who killed his own nephews or a long-denigrated, misunderstood king. This one man’s character and actions have divided historians and the controversy has always kept interest in Richard alive. However, curiosity surrounding his life and death has reached unprecedented heights in the aftermath of the discovery of his skeleton under a Leicester car park. The myths that have always swirled around Richard III have risen and multiplied and it is time to set the record straight. John Ashdown-Hill, whose research was instrumental in the discovery of Richard III’s remains, explores and unravels the web of myths in this fascinating book.

Plus, I have several Philippa Gregory books, on Anne Neville, Elizabeth Woodville and Elizabeth of York, in all of which Richard III is innocent of his nephews' murder.

I'm taking those I already have to France - those in the suggestions I got will wait until I get back, there's no time now to get them before I leave. Besides, they are "real" books, not Kindle editions, and my suitcase is heavy enough as it is!!! Very Happy
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Lisa



Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 435
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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 10:18 pm    Post subject: Ricardian books Reply with quote

My! What a list! That's impressive!

Tell me, among all those books, which are historical fiction, which are pure historical non-fiction? I'm rather a newcomer in this controversy about Richard III. Which book(s) would you recommend I should begin with so as not to be too lost among the events and characters? The Philippa Gregory books, for example, seem to have been written for readers already familiar with the story and the characters. I take it there are family trees to refer to?

Oh, and out of curiosity, what made you all hooked on this theory that Richard III did not kill the Princes in the Tower? confused
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Emmanuel



Joined: 22 Dec 2009
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 9:33 am    Post subject: Re: Ricardian books Reply with quote

Lisa wrote:
Oh, and out of curiosity, what made you all hooked on this theory that Richard III did not kill the Princes in the Tower? confused

For me, the first book that gave me an inkling that Shakespeare was way off base in his Richard III play is Josephine Tey's The Daughter of time, which was written back in the 1950's. Since then, I've read numerous books, both fiction and non-fiction, all of them making a pretty good case for Richard III's innocence.

Especially now that his remains have been discoverd under a parking lot in Leicester, and they did some DNA testing, it has revived interest in him. Sure, that doesn't prove he did away with the kids - except if he had done it, he wouldn't have done so in this way, that did him the most possible harm. But someone capable, like Henry Tudor was, of desecrating an honorable enemy's body the way he did isn't conducive of making one believe anything he said, or anyone else said to curry favour with him. Tudor was a thoroughly despicable human being, and had the flimsiest possible claim to the throne of England. It's much more probable he was the one who did away with the princes (if indeed the princes hadn't already been spirited out of the Tower), rather than Richard, or Buckingham, or any of the other suspects.
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inkling7
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 9:44 am    Post subject: The Princes in the Tower (or out of same) Reply with quote

See what I think happened was that Richard knew the Tudors were up to no good so he had the Prince's spirited away to another country to be brought up as normal kids with new identities so they wouldn't be found.. The youngest one survived whereas the oldest one didn't - child mortality was quite high in those days but when baby brother tried to reveal his true identity and said he wasn't really someone called Perkin W then it all started to go wrong and he ended up dead anyway... Sad
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Lyta



Joined: 31 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 3:48 pm    Post subject: What about Edward? Reply with quote

I do wonder why all the stories about the surviving prince are about Richard. Does anyone know whatever happened to Edward? He was the older of the two, how come he disappeared?

There was speculation that he was behind the Simnell rebellion, that he stayed behind, Simnell being a straw man, who'd step away if the rebellion succeeded, and Edward would come out and take the throne. But the rebellion failed, and nothing more was heard about Edward...

It must have been him, though. John de la Pole and Francis Lovell wouldn't have fought for an impostor, and most important of all, Elizabeth Woodville wouldn't have thrown her support for someone who would supplant her son-in-law, with her own daughter as queen, if she hadn't believed she was supporting her son...
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LadyOnTheMoon



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 5:09 pm    Post subject: Re: What about Edward? Reply with quote

Lyta wrote:
I do wonder why all the stories about the surviving prince are about Richard. Does anyone know whatever happened to Edward? He was the older of the two, how come he disappeared?

According to one theory, he was quite sick and died of natural death. According to another, he was, as Lyta said, the "real" prince behind the Simnell rebellion.

According to Perkin Warbeck's account, Edward was killed by an un-named lord, who was to kill the younger prince, Richard, too, but who couldn't bring himself to do it and spirited Richard away as "Perkin Warbeck".
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