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Hermione Granger - What made her tick?
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Strawberry07



Joined: 06 Jun 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 12:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Hermione's teeth Reply with quote

inkling7 wrote:
Another thing seeing as Hermoine's parents were dentist why didn't they either fix her teeth themselves or send her to an orthodontist? Or is this a case of the cobblers children going without shoes etc. if you get my drift......

My father was a dentist and made sure our teeth were looked after and any crookedness might be straightened etc. and he wasn't a dork just because he decided to do dentistry over medicine as the hours were more civilised and over architecture because business could go off there and people always needed dentists and worked better hours than doctors who often got called out at night on emergencies whereas dentists rarely did.

My point is though did Hermoine's parents not care that her teeth made her feel a little conscious about her appearance as it seems to have done since she corrected them magically herself or were they waiting until she was a few years older to do something?


Hermione told Harry and Ron that her parents wanted her to continue with her braces and that they wouldn't be happy that she got her teeth fixed magically. It was wherever in GoF that Ron noticed her teeth were different. She says her parents didn't think teeth and magic should be mixed. So, it seems that she had been wearing braces, but ten months per year at Hogwarts would make trips to the orthodontist tricky, so I wonder how they were working around that.


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Also this made me wonder why Harry's and his fathers defective eyesight couldn't be fixed magically.


As others have said, it seems like there are some things magic cannot fix, or that is just too risky to attempt. Dumbledore wore glasses, and he was one of the most powerful wizards ever, so it seems like it's one of those things that magic hasn't been able to do yet. There are always limits to what can be achieved, and levels that haven't been achieved yet.
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Kerowyn
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:30 am    Post subject: Hermione's insecurities Reply with quote

The following was posted by Meesha on another site. It's about the Potions book annotated by the Half-Blood Prince and how Harry used it to excel at Potions.

As for Hermione, I don't think it was every completely due to jealousy. Hermione had been jealous of Harry getting better grades than her in their third year DADA exams as well, but she didn't get angry with Harry about that. She didn't like it, but she was more upset with herself for her failures than she was with Harry for doing well in that situation because she knew Harry had earned those marks because he had studied, participated in class, and done the work on his own. In HBP, Hermione was angry with Harry because she felt his use of that potions book was cheating. He wasn't getting better marks than her because he had earned it - he didn't even understand what he was doing in potions because all he was doing was copying the results of someone else's work and pretending those were his ideas.

I think Hermione was actually more jealous of "the Prince" in that situation. The notes in the books demonstrated that "the Prince" had been an excellent student - at least in terms of potions - and had probably earned higher marks than Hermione could in that class - which would bother Hermione a great deal because she was so determined to be the best at whatever she did. That potions book emphasized that, while Hermione might be the best student in her year, she was not necessarily the best student overall - there had been students in the past who had done just as well, or better. Hermione seemed to feel that anyone doing something better than she did meant she had failed.

Likewise, Harry's use of the book - not only in potions class, but in learning the spells written in the margins outside of class - diminished Hermione's role within the trio - as she defined it. Harry and Ron had always come to her for help with their school work and learning new spells. Now they were both turning to that book for answers instead of her. And Dumbledore had started having those private lessons with Harry where he was giving him information that, in the past, Harry would have needed Hermione to help him find - or try to find. I think Hermione felt like she was being replaced and was afraid that, if Harry and Ron didn't need her help, they might eventually stop being her friends. That was compounded by the situation with Ron and Lavender because Hermione felt like she had been replaced there as well, IMO.

All in all, that wasn't a very good year for Hermione in terms of her own insecurities because she was forced to acknowledge that she wasn't the best at everything and that she had made some rather large mistakes. However, I think that was good for Hermione's emotional development as well because she learned some important lessons that year. She learned that Harry and Ron would still be her friends and still value her opinion even if they got information from another source. She learned that her own behavior and how she treated others was a factor in how they perceived her. I do wish we had gotten to see more of this development on page, but we did at least get to see the end result with Hermione having learned those lessons.

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4Wizards



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:58 am    Post subject: Re: Hermione's insecurities Reply with quote

Meesha wrote:
All in all, that wasn't a very good year for Hermione in terms of her own insecurities because she was forced to acknowledge that she wasn't the best at everything and that she had made some rather large mistakes. However, I think that was good for Hermione's emotional development as well because she learned some important lessons that year. She learned that Harry and Ron would still be her friends and still value her opinion even if they got information from another source. She learned that her own behavior and how she treated others was a factor in how they perceived her. I do wish we had gotten to see more of this development on page, but we did at least get to see the end result with Hermione having learned those lessons.

As usual with Meesha, long post, but very well thought-out and presented. And quite spot-on. ten
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:55 pm    Post subject: Hermione's POV Reply with quote

Some of you may have read this essay before

http://www.hp-lexicon.org/essays/essay-hh-suited.html

but I was wondering what you all thought about it from a Hermione's perspective. Personally I think it is a brilliantly written essay that did make me consider things about Hermione that I had not thought of before.
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Griffiegirl



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 12:09 am    Post subject: Hermione - Character Analysis Reply with quote

I found this loooong conversation with Meesha who responds at length (does Meesha ever post anything but long posts? bleh Where does she find the time?) and can't help copying it here. This thread has been idle too long.

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Guess I just see those small improvements as big things in the Harry/Hermione relationship which up until that point had been fairly static. After the Dept. of Mysteries, there is no "I told you so" like we so ofter heard in the past. She may not understand what Harry needs, but she does know to back off and not push him to talk about Sirius in HBP even though it's clear she's DYING to. And again, after Godric's Hollow, there's no "I told you so"; rather Harry tries to take the blame and Hermione tells him she's equally at-fault.

Actually, Hermione does continue to play the "I told you so" card - as HRW pointed out. In addition to the Sectumsempra incident from HBP, I would also include her telling Harry that Eileen Prince was Snape's mother at the end of HBP just so she could say that she was right about Eileen Prince being connected to the HBP potions book. She even admits to Harry that's why she told him - she wanted him to know she was right. Just like the Sectumsempra incident, Hermione only succeeded in making Harry feel worse and he was even more angry and defensive than he had been before she said anything. She also attempts to do that in DH at Shell Cottage by asking Ollivander about the Elder wand - expecting him to confirm that it did not exist, but being shocked and disappointed about being wrong when he confirmed that it did exist instead.

Hermione never figured out when to back off and not push Harry on her own - it was always Ron who helped with that. Harry could always tell when Ron and Hermione had discussed something with each other before they came to him. Left to her own devices, Hermione would continue to push Harry until he got angry with her. It was Ron who stopped her from doing that - sometimes with a look or saying something in the moment and sometimes by coaching her before they talked to Harry.

As for the DOM incident specifically, there wasn't really an "I told you so" for Hermione there because Harry did do what she asked and tried to contact Sirius to confirm his vision. Hermione believed Kreacher about Sirius being captured the same as Harry did. Hermione couldn't tell Harry that he shouldn't have believed Kreacher when she did as well.

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I also wouldn't count her disagreement about the Horcrux at Hogwarts as a 'fight'. First it was when they were all wearing the locket so they were all snapping at the slightest thing. Second, her logic was quite sound whereas Harry's side was based on a gut feeling. Just because he happened to be right doesn't diminish the value of Hermione's thought process.

I would agree that wasn't a fight, but only because Harry tried to avoid arguing with Hermione whenever possible. That's why his preferred tactics were to avoid, ignore, or lie to her - he didn't like arguments like that. Harry's thoughts are very revealing in that regard. Harry and Hermione didn't argue or fight very often simply because Harry most often chose to avoid the issue instead of speaking up. The reader knows when Harry is angry with Hermione, when he disagrees with her, and when he is lying to her - Hermione generally did not because Harry never said anything to her directly. That's not a positive aspect of their friendship, IMO.

However, I would disagree that Hermione's logic was sound or that Harry was only going on a gut feeling. I would say it was the opposite actually. Harry's realization stemmed from factual information that he had learned about Voldemort from Dumbledore as well as what he knew about Voldemort due to the connection they shared. Hermione's argument was based on an assumption that didn't hold because they knew that Voldemort had started making Horcruxes while he was still a student at Hogwarts and that he had gone back to the castle at least once as an adult - the night he met with Dumbledore about the DADA position. There were numerous opportunities for Voldemort to have hidden a Horcrux within the castle while he was a student and, since Harry only saw what happened inside Dumbledore's office in that memory, it was entirely possible that Voldemort had detoured on his way to Dumbledore's office - or after leaving his office - to hide a Horcrux somewhere in the castle.

From what we're shown there, I would say that Hermione was reacting almost entirely due to her fear of what would happen if they attempted to get into Hogwarts at that time. She refused to listen to Harry or even consider that as an option simply because she did not want to take that risk, IMO. That's not to say that her fear was not understandable because it was. Getting into Hogwarts was a daunting task even when they finally did attempt it - and would have been impossible without Aberforth's help. Still, the issue at hand is how Hermione handled that situation and refusing to even listen to Harry simply because she was afraid was not a good thing, IMO.

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And again, she may've not understood Harry's desire to go to Godric's Hollow, but she certainly seemed to get the point once they were in the graveyard. Hermione likes to have things spelled out for her: it's why most of the time she's so terrible at reading Harry since he never talks about things. Yet in the graveyard, no words are spoken, no explanations are given, but she (finally) gets it, gets Harry.

I would have to disagree with that as well. I don't think Hermione could ever really understand what that meant to Harry simply because her parents were alive and she had grown up with them so she knew them. To be fair, I would say the same for Ron. Neither of them could ever understand what it was like for Harry to have grown up without his parents - to know that they were murdered because Voldemort wanted to kill him. Neither of them could understand what Harry was feeling there because neither of them had been through something like that. Some things you have to experience to really understand them.

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You are right that 5th year Hermione would follow Harry over staying in school. Saying otherwise as I did was doing a disservice to her character. But there is nevertheless a HUGe drop-off in how much she nags the boys about homework in HBP from OotP. And it's not to do with not having OWLS as Harry notes several times they're working just as hard as ever even with fewer classes. Yes she's on his case about getting the memory and the potion's book, but the former really was important that Harry shouldn't have been neglecting (even Dumbledore tells Harry the same thing) and the latter...well the latter is mostly Hermione just being old Hermione , but it's still something of an improvement and better understanding Harry's priorities.

Actually, Hermione continues to get on the boys about schoolwork - even in HBP, Harry noted how Hermione was making study schedules for them. The difference there was that Harry and Ron had learned to just go with it and stopped arguing with her about it. There's even a funny moment where Ron gets excited because Hermione put a block of free time in their schedules until she tells him that it's for Quidditch practice. The change there was in Harry and Ron - Hermione was doing what she always did, but they had learned to just go along with her.

The issue there was not what Harry's priorities were. It was Hermione's priorities. Voldemort made things personal with Harry, but it was never all about Harry. Voldemort's regime was a threat to a lot of people - especially muggleborns like Hermione and those considered blood traitors like the Weasleys. Hermione was not making a choice between following Harry and school. She was making a choice between doing everything she could to help stop Voldemort and school.

That is significant because that is a choice Hermione would have made regardless of what Harry's priorities were, IMO. Voldemort taking over would have meant that she could no longer attend Hogwarts anyway. She wouldn't have even been able to be part of the wizarding world under Voldemort's regime. Hermione did not make that choice for Harry - or even because of him. She made that choice to make the wizarding world a safer place for herself and other muggleborns - and anyone else Voldemort and the Death Eaters considered targets. Harry was part of it because Dumbledore chose him to destroy the Horcruxes, but Hermione would have wanted to help defeat Voldemort regardless, IMO.

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Perhaps most importantly, while you are right that they still disagreed a lot, I have a different take on why. In DH, Hermione isn't trying to be the bossy know-it-all, to prove that she's always right. They're on a mission to save the country/world, a mission where they basically face the possibility of death at every corner. She knows how impulsive Harry is, how it's gotten him in trouble in the past. Any mistake now could be a very costly one. So she slows him down, tries to get him to second-guess and re-think (or think at all in a lot of cases) before leaping in head first. That's her role (well, one of them), it's a GOOD thing, and Harry is better off for it rather than just a 'yes' man who agrees with whatever he says without question.

I would disagree because being the "bossy, know-it-all" is simply part of who Hermione is. She'll always have that aspect to her personality - which is evident in the epilogue as well, IMO. I think that ties in with Hermione's fear of failure. If she's wrong about something, she feels as though she has failed. I think that's why she put so much effort into memorizing everything she read and knowing all the answers in school. Knowledge was the only thing of value Hermione felt she had to offer, IMO.

What stands out most in DH is that Hermione was not trying to get Harry to think about what he was doing before he acted or slow him down. She was trying to prevent him from acting on those things at all. She did not want him to go to Godric's Hollow at all and only changed her mind when she came the conclusion that Dumbledore might have left the sword there for Harry - and that was the only reason she agreed to go in the end. She did not want him to try to get into Hogwarts to look for a Horcrux and only agreed to go after Harry shared Voldemort's thoughts about where he had hidden the Horcruxes. She did not want Harry to look for the Hallows at all or even acknowledge the possibility that they might exist. Those weren't situations where Hermione told Harry that he needed to think and plan things out first. Those were situations where she flat out refused to even consider them as options and told Harry to forget about it all together. She turned out to be wrong about all three because all three were necessary to defeat Voldemort.

I do agree that it was a good thing that neither Ron nor Hermione were simply "yes men" who did whatever Harry said. However, being willing to at least consider and discuss all the options is important as well and that's what Hermione failed to do in these situations, IMO.

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And you'll note that when Harry really does come up with a logical train of thought after Malfoy Manor and puts the pieces of the Hallows together with what he's been seeing in Voldemort's mind, she relents, arguing not against their existence (even though she is still skeptical), but that the mission Dumbledore set was the Horcruxes, which Harry himself as already agreed with in his own head. They both have different beliefs and ideas and tendencies because they're very different people, but they still come to the same common ground anyway.

Actually, it was Ollivander confirming that the Elder wand did exist that finally convinced Hermione. Nothing Harry said or did made any difference to her. Ollivander was someone she respected and considered an authority on the subject of wands so she accepted what he said without any argument at all. Harry and Hermione never really come to the same common ground in that respect. Hermione only truly trusts facts that come from books or people she considers an authority on the subject from what we're shown.

Hermione resorted to the argument that Dumbledore had told Harry to go after the Horcruxes only because Harry had made it clear that he believed the Hallows existed, IMO. I think Hermione made it very clear that she did not believe the Hallows existed at all until Ollivander confirmed the existence of the Elder wand. Dumbledore's assignment was the only thing she had to use as an argument against Harry's obsession. However, even that argument fell short because it was also Dumbledore who left them the clues to discover the Hallows and even made sure Harry had two of them in his possession.

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As for Harry's side of things, I don't think he fails her because he misunderstands her in HBP. He fails because he's not Ron and Ron was the only person who would make her better. And I don't blame Harry for not being Ron He certainly could've done more (tell her Ron/Lavender isn't anything serious, explain how the mess started with Ginny, push Ron a little more to try and make up with Hermione), but he went from doing nothing for her in five books except when she was in physical danger to doing something. That's a huge step forward any way you slice it.

A good friend is able to give comfort and make you feel at least a little bit better when they understand you in my experience. Harry didn't need to be Ron to comfort Hermione - he just needed to be a good friend and understand what she needed him to say or do in that situation. He couldn't get rid of her pain, but he could have done more than he did. Really, Harry could have prevented the whole thing simply by telling Hermione about Ron's argument with Ginny so she could have gone to Ron and told him her side of the story instead of letting that fester for a week. He could have told her about his plan to make Ron think he had taken Felix Felicis even though he hadn't - which would have prevented Hermione from sticking her foot in her mouth after the match was over.

I do agree that Harry even trying to offer comfort to Hermione was a huge improvement over his behavior towards her in the first five books. However, it also must be noted that this was basically a one time thing. By the time we got to DH, Harry had regressed back to his previous behavior and stopped even trying to offer comfort. I think that was due to him not being able to comfort her in HBP - it appears that he just gave up trying after that.

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Harry reacted to Ron and Hermione when they were fighting the same way he always (usually) did: let them rant. Only they couldn't rant at each other so he listened instead. He knew they didn't want him to present a logical argument. They just wanted him to sit there and nod his head and say their feelings were justified. Which he did, only without the head nodding because he felt they were both being ridiculous (they were). To me, that's Harry perfectly understanding what Hermione wanted and delivering. And I definitely feel you're selling Harry a bit short in saying he ONLY made the joke as a ploy to distract Hermione and paints him a very bad light which I don't think you mean to. And I don't think the text really supports that supposition either.

Actually, in the past, Harry had typically sided with Ron in such situations - i.e. when Ron got angry with Hermione because it appeared that Crookshanks had eaten Scabbers. In most cases, Harry agreed with Ron and felt Hermione was wrong - though he generally chose not to say anything directly and that was revealed in his thoughts. I think the situation in HBP was the first time where Harry tried to stay neutral and acknowledged that both Ron and Hermione were wrong in regards to their behavior - for different things of course. Again, this was an improvement because he wasn't taking sides and he was being more objective. However, being best friends with both of them, there was a lot that Harry could have done to prevent things from getting to that point as well as to help both of his friends after they did get to that point. He chose not to and that was mostly because he didn't know what to say to Hermione and didn't want to be part of the argument.

From what we see of Ron and Hermione's rants, I don't think either of them just wanted Harry to sit there in silence while they ranted. They wanted him to take a side - which is natural. They each wanted Harry to agree with them - which is also natural. I think that was surprising to Hermione because, in the past, Harry had typically sided with Ron and she was left to spend her time alone. Harry chooses not to say anything because he doesn't really agree with either of them and he doesn't want to become part of the argument. Basically, Harry started using his avoid/ignore/lie tactic on both of them to avoid conflict in that situation. I think he would have done better to just tell them that they were both being ridiculous.

As for the joke, I think the text is very clear on that - particularly since that is the only time we ever see Harry engage Hermione in any kind of lighthearted, joking banter - or any private conversation between the two of them that doesn't involve schoolwork or solving the current mystery. Harry never really saw Hermione as someone to have fun with - mostly he considered spending time with her alone boring because that meant sitting in the library studying. Likewise, Hermione didn't really share Harry's sense of humor - there were other times that he made jokes to Ron and/or Ginny when she was around, but she didn't consider it funny because Harry had a rather dark sense of humor and tended to joke about things like getting murdered by Voldemort. Honestly, I think that was a normal reaction from Harry because he was getting tired of Hermione lecturing him about the potions book. He had an ulterior motive because he wanted to distract her from lecturing him about the book, but that was certainly better than snapping at her about it like he would have done in OOTP, IMO.

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I don't see one instance of him avoiding Hermione in HBP. In fact, she seems quite content to be on her own after Lavender enters the scene. This isn't a replay of first or third year where Hermione follows him along hoping to be included; Harry becomes the one seeking her out. And not saying anything =/= ignore. Look how many times Harry just sits and listens to both Ron AND Hermione across the first six books. He chimes in here and there when he has something significant to add or wants to argue a point, but mostly he's a man of few words compared to his much chattier friends. Or are you also implying that Harry and Ron suddenly became worse friends in HBP because he started 'ignoring' Ron as well?

I don't recall him specifically avoiding Hermione in HBP either, but he did ignore her and lie to her - especially when it came to him using the potions book. Those three hours of silence in the library were Harry ignoring Hermione - he didn't want to hear all that and he basically tuned her out while he focused on his potions homework. And he did do that with Ron as well during that time - that was a period of strain on Ron and Harry's friendship. Harry being annoyed by Lavender didn't help there. I do think Harry handled things with Ron a bit better than he did with Hermione, but there was definitely a lack there because Harry really didn't know what to do in that situation.

There is a difference between sitting and listening to others talk with occasional contributions to the conversation and sitting in silence trying not to hear what they are saying because you don't want to be dragged into the middle and not saying anything at all. The first is an actual conversation and all parties are participating even if they are just listening. The latter is one person trying to ignore the other - or others - and not participating in any capacity. I think that was a natural reaction from Harry because he really didn't have a clue what to say or do - romantic problems were not his area of expertise after all. However, that is also one of Harry's flaws because his own tendency to internalize everything and shut people out made it difficult for him to know what to do when others opened up to him.

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And DH. I've actually made some of the same arguments you present here in the past, but I can't say I agree anymore after my last reread. It's not really a regression from HBP. Harry doesn't comfort Hermione because he can't. He's hurt by Ron's loss almost as much as she is, a big difference from HBP where Ron dating Lavender was no skin of Harry's back. Furthermore, they are in a completely hopeless situation with no progress made, an evil Horcrux sapping their strength and cheer (remember, after Ron left, they both had to wear the locket much more frequently), and are practically starving in the dead of winter in England.

I've reread the series several times and that still seems like a huge regression to me. Of course Harry could have comforted Hermione when Ron left - the fact that Ron leaving hurt both of them should have made it easier for him to do so, IMO. It was very different from what happened in HBP because, in that situation Harry could understand Hermione's pain because he was feeling the same pain himself. Shared pain is much easier to understand. Harry knew that Hermione was hurting, he knew why, and he understood it that time because he had been hurt too. Instead of sharing that and trying to comfort each other, they each chose to ignore the other. Hermione stayed, but they each might as well have been alone in that tent during that time.

The locket is certainly a factor for their behavior in the following weeks, but that night it had been Ron wearing the locket - and he had been wearing it longer than he was supposed to from what Hermione said. It wasn't the locket that made Harry throw a blanket over Hermione and then completely ignore her. It wasn't the locket that made Hermione turn away from Harry and go off alone as soon as they had disapparated to a new location the next morning because Harry was wearing it. Likewise, neither Harry nor Hermione was ever as strongly effected by the locket as Ron had been. That was the two of them choosing to ignore each other to brood alone.

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And really, because JKR used Ron for internal conflict, we never got a chance to see the two boys deal with Hermione's absence under such extreme circumstances. We only have conjecture that Harry/Ron would be a better duo on the Horcrux Hunt than Harry/Hermione. Sure, Ron's leaving is a great way to demonstrate his usually understated value to the trio, but it's also very much a commentary on the trio as a whole and how all three of them are necessary to the whole. If Hermione had said the things Ron did before storming off into the night I'm pretty sure Harry would be equally useless in her absence.

Actually, we do see how the boys functioned without Hermione in COS. They did very well, IMO. It was a different situation, but Hermione being petrified was traumatic and hurt both of them - just as Ron getting angry and storming out hurt both Harry and Hermione. The difference is that Harry and Ron were able to comfort each other and continue to work together in spite of that traumatic experience. The three of them are certainly stronger together than apart because they each bring something different to the table, but Harry and Ron make a strong duo as well because they understand each other so well, IMO.

We also see that in POA when neither Harry nor Ron was talking to Hermione. That did not have any negative impact on their friendship at all - they continued on as usual without Hermione and did fine. Really, I don't think Harry noticed Hermione wasn't around unless Ron mentioned her - and even then it really didn't seem that Harry was all that concerned about it. From what we see of Harry and Hermione's friendship, I don't think he would have been as hurt by Hermione criticizing him the way he was by Ron criticizing him. He expected Hermione to criticize him and lecture him because she did that a lot and he was used to it. He could very easily tune her out and ignore her - which he did a lot when she went into lecture mode. It was very rare for Ron to do that because they were so in sync with each other and usually agreed with each other. Ron being the one to criticize him and point out how bad things were going had a great deal more impact on Harry and hurt a lot more than it would have coming from Hermione, IMO.

Basically, I don't think there is any conjecture about how well Harry and Ron could work together without Hermione because we do have several examples of them doing that within the series in various circumstances. The bottom line there is that Harry and Ron understood each other so well and were so often completely in sync that Hermione's absence did not have much of a negative impact on them in terms of their friendship or their ability to function. That wasn't the case with Harry and Hermione because, without Ron as a buffer, they really were not able to function at all and didn't accomplish anything during that time because they spent 90% of that time brooding alone and ignoring each other. Harry and Ron wouldn't have done that from what we're shown.

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You do make a really good point about how manipulative Harry was in even getting Hermione to Godric's Hollow. I'd forgotten the extensiveness of Harry's thought process leading into it. But while your point stands, it doesn't diminish the scene itself. By the time they get there, Hermione is clearly not thinking about the sword, clearly can see what Harry wants to do and is also (as you pointed out) clear headed thanks to less locket action. Yet she voices no complaints or objections even when he wants to take off the Invisibility Cloak nor makes any attempt to get back on task. She gets excited at the different headstones, but that's just her curiosity.

It's all part of the whole so it does diminish that for me. It's not just about where you end up - it's how you get there as well. Harry's manipulation and deception mars that entire scene because it demonstrates a lack of trust between them - which is also demonstrated by Hermione's refusal to even consider Harry's ideas at times, IMO. Hermione's goal was the sword - that is the only reason she agreed to go after all - and Harry knew that. However, she also knows that Harry wants to see his parents graves and wouldn't be able to focus on the sword until he had done so - and I do think it was very nice of her to let him do that first. That doesn't change the fact that the only reason she agreed to go there was because she thought Dumbledore left the sword there, IMO. Likewise, she is momentarily distracted from that when she discovers the symbol she found in the book etched into the gravestone - she was certain that symbol was important until she found out it signified the Deathly Hallows.

Also, Hermione did object to removing the Invisibility cloak. Harry overruled her objection by pointing out that they were disguised as muggles so no one would recognize them and that the snow made using the Invisibility cloak useless because their footprints would be seen. Likewise, he was annoyed with her when she got distracted by Ignotus Peverell's grave - he told her he was going to keep looking for his parents with "a slight edge to his voice" and left her there.

There are other little things that demonstrate how little they understand each other in that scene as well. Hermione's indignation over people writing on the sign in front of the Potters' home while Harry was touched and appreciated people showing their support for example. Overall, there are a couple of nice moments there but the scene as a whole demonstrates a lack of trust, a lack of understanding, and just how very different the two of them are, IMO.

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Also I just re-read that chapter and saw nothing about Harry not wanting Hermione there, only an urgency to not get sidetracked from looking for his parents' grave. I did see this however:

Amazing how Harry is wishing he'd brought something for them just seconds before Hermione conjures the wreath, almost like she read his mind, almost like she really does understand Harry in this important moment, and how he immediately squeezes back at her touch. Nothing about being embarrassed that she sees him either, which is a stark contrast to the embarrassment he feels in front of Ron (and only Ron even though Hermione and Mrs. Weasley are both also present) in Goblet of Fire.

It is a nice moment and Harry certainly appreciates Hermione conjuring the flowers, but I wouldn't read too much into that because putting flowers on a grave is an automatic gesture - it's just what you do in a situation like that. I think Hermione's later panic and regret about the flowers demonstrates that she was not thinking about it at the time or acting specifically to make Harry feel better. I doubt she had any idea what was going through Harry's mind at that moment. From what we're shown, that was just an automatic response to the situation and, had she actually thought about it at the time, she would never have done it because she would have realized that would give them away, IMO.

As for Harry not wanting her there, it is the fact that he cannot look at her that gives me that impression. He doesn't want her to see him like that and is embarrassed. To be fair, I would apply that to anyone because that was a private moment for Harry and he was never one to be open with his emotions. We see a similar response at the end of GOF when he is embarrassed because he broke down when Molly hugged him and Ron was watching. Harry's reaction there tells me he would prefer to be alone with his parents - and I think that is perfectly natural.

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I feel like you're protesting too much because I brought up the romance thing-a mistake which I shouldn't have involved in this discussion (as it's really a separate thread ultimately not worth talking about imo). Her being paranoid that the wreath later on doesn't diminish the graveyard scene in the slightest. It's using logic to figure out how they're caught so it doesn't happen again. And hey, what do you know? It's Harry NOT THINKING that ends up getting the trio caught later on. She isn't doing anything wrong, or mistreating Harry or being a bad friend or anything of the sort by trying to figure out how Bathilda saw through the polyjuice. She's doing her job of being the logical one in the trio, of trying to slow Harry down as Dumbledore wanted, of being the methodical counterbalance to Harry's brash impulsiveness.

Dumbledore hoped Hermione would slow Harry down, but Hermione did not know that. Dumbledore never gave her any instruction of that sort. Likewise, as I stated above, Hermione was not attempting to slow Harry down to trying to be a methodical counterbalance in those situations - she was trying to stop Harry from doing those things at all because of her own fears from what we're shown.

I wouldn't say that Harry was all that brash or impulsive - particularly at this point in the story. There actually were not very many times where Harry acted impulsively or recklessly. I've seen the argument made before with the examples of the stone, the chamber, the shrieking shack, going to the DOM, etc... However, those were not situations where Harry acted impulsively or recklessly, IMO. In all of those scenarios, Harry initially tried to get help from an adult - seeking out Dumbledore or McGonagall for example. It was only after he had exhausted those options and felt there was no other choice that he acted on his own so I wouldn't consider him brash or impulsive. I would agree that Hermione very likely did consider Harry brash and impulsive, but I also feel that demonstrates a lack of trust as well as how little she understands Harry.

Hermione's panic about the flowers after the fact demonstrates that it was an automatic gesture that she didn't think about at the time - if she had been thinking, she would never have done that. It's not an issue of that diminishing the scene - it was a nice thing for Hermione to do regardless - but it does demonstrate that she did not do it for Harry and she wasn't reading his mind, IMO. She just automatically did what people do when they visit a grave - put flowers on it. When she did stop to think about it, she realized it was a mistake and she regretted it. It made no difference that Harry appreciated it and thought it was nice - she didn't care about that because she realized that doing that could have put them in danger and she wished she hadn't done it. So, overall, I don't get the impression that Harry's feelings were something Hermione really considered.

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As far as the wand, I'd be angry too. Anyone would. That's a reaction that can't be helped and he'd be angry if it was Ron's fault or Hagrid's or Ginny's. It has nothing to do with Hermione. What is important is this:

And even before that, Harry's thoughts tell us that he doesn't want to hurt her feelings. Compare that to Harry's digs at Ron in 4th year or the words both boys exchange in the tent or any number of Ron's and Hermione's rows where these best friends are purposely trying to hurt feelings, and I'd say that the fact that Harry is even TRYING to contain his anger is an enormous testament to their relationship. Heck, it's a mark for Hermione too. The girl actually admits blame, admits fault even though there's a little doubt about whether it really was her who broke the wand. Hermione almost never admits fault or accepts blame yet here she is doing it with Harry. And Harry, like a good friends, understands how upset she must be, and even though he's angry, tries to tell her it was only an accident.

I agree that Harry acknowledging that it was an accident demonstrates maturity. However, that does not change the fact that he was angry with her in spite of knowing it was an accident and that he continued to feel resentful about her breaking his wand afterward. Harry's thoughts are what reveals that. He resented Hermione telling him that he just needed to practice with the Blackthorn wand because he knew she only said that because she felt guilty. His thoughts reveal that he bit back the retort because he wanted Hermione to forgive Ron so they could all be friends again and he figured arguing with her wouldn't help. Again, that shows maturity, but it also makes it clear that Harry still feels resentful about Hermione breaking his wand in spite of knowing it was an accident, IMO.

That being said, this is not really a change for Harry. We see a similar thought process in POA when Hermione betrayed him by going behind his back to tell McGonagall about the Firebolt. He knew her intentions were good and she did it because she was worried, but that didn't stop him from being angry with her because she didn't discuss it with him first. He also chooses not to address that problem when he gets the broom back because he doesn't like that kind of conflict. Unfortunately, that also results in that issue never really being resolved between them and the lack of trust that becomes so prevalent in the latter books started at that point, IMO.

That's also an issue with Harry not wanting to hurt Hermione's feelings regarding the wand. It's a nice sentiment, but it prevents the issue from being resolved so he continues to feel resentful and to internalize that resentment. That's one of Harry's flaws - his tendency to internalize everything and wanting to avoid conflict prevents certain issues from ever being resolved.

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Looking at JUST Harry/Hermione in a vacuum can certainly put a negative shine on their relationship, but when put in the general context of Harry and Hermione in general, how they develop as the series progresses, their relationships with other characters (Ron especially) at the same time, and the circumstances surrounding each interaction and for me it's quite clear that progress is definitely made.

It seems to be the opposite to me. There are some nice moments there, but ignoring everything else in favor of a few nice moments creates a vaccum that prevents objectivity, IMO. Looking at their friendship as a whole, I think it is clear that they were not particularly close in terms of having any kind of emotional bond. They care about each other and have a very sibling like relationship, but their bond was based on the practical - external factors like school, the fight against Voldemort, and their mutual friendship with Ron were the only genuine connections they had with each other. And there's nothing wrong with that - it doesn't diminish their friendship overall because people have various types of friends throughout their lives. They are able to overcome the problems we've discussed even without things being resolved because it's not an emotional bond for them. It's easier for them to be more practical when such things occur because they don't have that emotional bond to prevent them from having any objectivity.

That's why Harry's two fights with Ron were so much more devastating to him, IMO. They had an emotional bond that was rooted in their similarities - which is why they were so often in sync and understood each other so well. It was much more difficult for Harry to have any objectivity when dealing with Ron because it was such an emotional blow when Ron doubted him or criticized him.

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I still think this is less about Harry/Hermione friendship and more about Harry's overall personality and circumstance. He also doesn't stop Ron from making fun of Hermione, doesn't stop him from snogging Lavender in front of Hermione, doesn't remind Ron that hed promised to go to the party with Hermione, doesn't really explain to Ron how it's OBVIOUSLY Hermione must really like him to be so upset about Lavender. Yet I don't see those things as evidence that Harry's friendship with Ron isn't that great.

Actually, Harry did lecture Ron about making fun of Hermione in HBP - he also lectured him about pretending to be asleep when Lavender visited him in the hospital wing. Harry never had a problem addressing such issues with Ron. There wasn't anything Harry could do about the situation with Lavender while Ron was dating her. Ron was right about one thing there - he and Hermione had never officially dated or defined their relationship as anything beyond being friends at that point so choosing to date and kiss another girl wasn't what he did wrong there and Harry understood that, IMO. The problem was that Ron made that choice based on gossip from Ginny and never talked to Hermione about it to get her side of the story. Harry didn't really know how to address that problem because he could empathize with Ron in that because he had felt the same way about Cho and Cedric in GOF and OOTP as well as Ginny and Dean in HBP.

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I mean really, does the fact that Harry didn't stop the birds say anything about their friendship? No. It says something about Hermione's Charm skills and the level of her anger at Ron. Harry didn't have a chance to do anything about them, and neither would anyone else in his place. You guys are holding things against him that are beyond his influence.

Actually, I think Hermione caught both of them by surprise there. I don't think Harry realized what she was going to do until it was too late. I doubt Harry knew that spell to be honest. I think Harry would have at least tried to throw up a shield charm to protect Ron if he had known what Hermione was going to do - like he did in the tent after Ron came back in DH.

I wouldn't hold Harry responsible for anything Ron or Hermione did - as you said, he cannot control their behavior. But there is a difference in how he handles those situations because he will be honest with Ron and tell him when he disagrees with something Ron said or did where he tends to avoid such issues with Hermione and just ignore her.

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And comparing Ron's absence in DH to Hermione's in CoS is ridiculous and I think you know it. The tone of those early books is completely different; less a fight to save the world and more 'what adventure are we going on this year?' For all the talk of death, there was no lasting effect of the CoS or diary. No one died, school stayed open, etc. There's no burden of responsibility on Harry's/Ron's shoulders to solve everything as the teachers were evacuating the school and the Mandrakes were about to be ready to wake the victim's up who could say who the killer was. There's no Horcrux affecting them making them miserable, no adverse physical conditions, no sense of failure in their minds when they think they've failed to solve the mystery, no uncertainty of whether they'll ever see Hermione again. And really, Hermione in CoS was a far less important friend to the boys than she became a few books later.

I have to disagree with that. Hermione was attacked by an unknown monster and petrified. Harry and Ron were both upset by that because it was a traumatic experience. They also had to deal with the acromantula in the forest - and would have been dinner for Aragog's children if the car hadn't shown up. Spiders being Ron's greatest fear made that especially traumatic for him. There was no horcrux, but everyone was miserable due to the attacks and not knowing what the monster was or who was behind it. Harry had to deal with the majority of the students thinking he was Slytherin's heir - not all that different from being labeled "Undesirable #1" in DH. There was talk of closing the school - which particularly upset Harry because that meant he would be stuck with the Dursleys year round. Hagrid was sent to Azkaban. Dumbledore was gone - which left them all feeling that the situation was hopeless and that the attacks would only increase with him gone.

There are differences, but there are similarities in the situations as well. They didn't know if they would succeed in finding out who was behind the attacks or what the monster was or where the chamber was. They didn't know how the people who had been petrified would be effected by it. There was fear and mistrust all around.

However, the point is that these scenarios demonstrate the differences between Harry's friendship with Ron and his friendship with Hermione. Harry and Ron were both hurt and upset when Hermione was attacked, but that didn't drive them apart. They didn't go off to separate corners to brood alone about it. They comforted each other and supported each other. They were still very much in sync and understood each other. That's why they were able to continue to function and succeeded in finding out where the chamber was on their own. Hermione's absence didn't drive a wedge between them because they had never needed her as a buffer.

That is the difference because Harry and Hermione did need Ron as a buffer. It was always Ron who prevented Hermione from going too far in lecturing Harry when he was getting irritated by it. It was always Ron who managed to get Hermione to lighten up and relax instead of just studying and working all the time - which is what Harry found so boring when he was forced to hang out with only Hermione in GOF. It was always Ron who understood Harry best and knew how to get through to him without making him feel worse about the situation or causing him to get defensive. As Jo said, Ron was the glue that held the three of them together and that was the significance of him leaving in DH - as Harry realized on page. Without Ron there as a buffer, Harry and Hermione completely fell apart and could not function - they accomplished nothing at all in those weeks because of that. Hermione's absence did not have the same effect on Harry and Ron because they never needed her as a buffer.

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Your closing point is something I can agree with to some extent, especially the last bit about Hermione putting Harry into a bigger role in her life than the other way around. And GoF Harry definitely didn't care much at all for Hermione's personal interests, which is why I've been stressing the difference between their relationships in books 1-5 compared to 6 & 7. Comparing their relationship to Ron/Harry doesn't do anything except make the point that H/Hr aren't as emotionally connected as H/R. Okay, I don't think anyone except maybe the most hardcore H/Hr shippers would disagree. But H/R is like the ideal. It's the most developed relationship in the series, the entire foundation for Harry's own concept of friendship and relationships. Coming in 2nd to H/R is by no means a failure of any sort. Every other relationship would be found wanting by comparison.

I would agree that Harry made more effort in terms of his friendship with Hermione in HBP - but not in DH. However, that never extended to Harry getting to know Hermione as a person. Harry never did that - not even in HBP. He was never interested in her personal interests, her personal life outside of being a student at Hogwarts - he never even learns what her parents names are. That's a large part of the problem with Hermione's development as a character in the series. The reader learns very little about Hermione because the story is presented from Harry's perspective and he was never interested in Hermione on that level.

In terms of realism, I do think Jo did a good job in demonstrating a realistic practical friendship with Harry and Hermione. The same as she demonstrated a realistic emotional bond with Harry and Ron. But it does create problems in terms of Hermione's character development because Harry's lack of interest prevents the reader from getting to know who Hermione is as a person and there are a lot of questions that remain unanswered even now. That's why I prefer third person multiple POV over third person limited omniscient POV - it would have been a lot better if we had gotten the POV from other characters, IMO.
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Griffiegirl



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:38 pm    Post subject: Did they or didn't they? Reply with quote

The big question being debated at the moment in the CoS Hermione thread is whether she and Krum actually snogged or not. Rolling Eyes

Honestly, if it comes down to unimportant details like that (like, who cares?), it's one more piece of evidence that people are running out of things to discuss about the HP books and movies. sleep
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:51 pm    Post subject: Hermione and Snape's creativity Reply with quote

Here's an exchange comparing Hermione with Snape at her age, with regards to learning from books and sometimes going beyond the books.

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I have the same feeling about Snape being very Hermione-ish in how serious he took his studies. However young Snape seems far more creative, more eager to go beyond the limits of text and lecture to really understand and improve what's already known. We don't really see that with Hermione outside of a few moments until DH where she gets a lot more creative in her use of relatively mundane spells for extraordinary purposes.

I agree with this pretty much. As we know from the HBP book, Snape is not content with following book instructions. He is refining and perfecting advanced potions, and he is inventing spells. In that context, he's more creative, because Hermione is more wedded to the book.

Hermione, though, is very good at thinking outside-the-box in a crisis. So I would say that she just possesses a different type of creativity than Snape did at her age.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:54 am    Post subject: Hermione Granger - What made her tick? Reply with quote

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The following is a copy-and-paste opinion about Hermione.

1.Hermione's afraid of failure,so as defense mechanism, she studies obsessively and tries very hard to do everything literally by-the-book. How have her insecurities and defense mechanisms affected her development as a character throughout the series, and what are some other ones? In what ways have they hindered or helped her ? What causes her to feel this way, and has she become more secure with herself throughout the series?
I think it studying a lot has helped her gain knowledge about the wizarding world and I think that makes her more confident. At the same time, she doesn't initially make very many friends because they think she is a know-it-all. I think she feels insecure because she is a Muggleborn and she wants to fit into the wizarding world. I feel that she has become more secure throughout the series because she has grown and realized what her strengths are and focused more on those. Also, I think having friends who are different from her (Harry and Ron are more laid back when it comes to school) has helped her to realize it can be fun to let go a little.

2. Hermione repeatedly defends and helps those who can't defend or help themselves. . How similar is this to Harry's "saving people thing," and what does it say about her character?
I think it shows that she is very outspoken about what she believes in and has the guts to go through with what she wants to do, which is a positive trait because a lot of people can struggle with that. This could be similar to Harry's "saving people thing" because they both help people who are in a tight spot.

3.Hermione is very intuitive when it comes to others' emotions.However, she hardly ever talks about her own feelings, and most of them are expressed only through actions, like the flock of birds in HBP. Is this related in anyway to her insecurity? How does her relationship with Ron and Harry affect this part of personality? How do her relationships with other girls ( Ginny, Luna, Parvati, Lavendar, Pansy, etc.) affect it? Or how do they reflect that part of her?
I think she isn't used to talking about her emotions so she doesn't feel comfortable talking about them. It could be related to her insecurity because Hermione is used to having rules written down in a book for her but emotions don't have boundaries so it isn't something she likes to delve into. Being friends with Ron and Harry, both of whom don't talk too much about their emotions anyway, allows her to not have to talk about her own feelings. I think she doesn't mind talking about other people's feelings because she wants to help them.

4. What does this say about her connection to the wizarding world and her relationship with her parents? What do you think of her decision to modify her parent's memories?

I think her relationship with her parents is pretty decent and I feel that she likes to impress them with her good grades and stuff because that really is something that her parents can understand. The fact that she modified her parent's memory shows that she cares about them enough to realize they could get hurt being associated with her and she doesn't want that.


5. What does Hermione contribute to the Trio, both on a normal social basis and in the challenges they face together throughout the series? How do her strengths get them through things, and how do her weaknesses hold them back?
She is the brains of the trio because she always has the most knowledge on many of the stuff they face together. But she is also intuitive about emotions so she knows what is bothering her friends without them telling her and she usually tries to help out. Also, she tries not to prevent fights in the group, at least between Ron and Harry, so I think it helps to have her to keep them together. She wants them to follow rules, and chides them for doing the wrong thing but that usually doesn't hold them back too much because in the end they still break rules.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:04 am    Post subject: Hermione Granger - What made her tick? Reply with quote

Oddly enough despite generally being good with other peoples emotions she was terrible at reading Ron when it came to his feelings for her. It was not hard for anyone to see how Ron felt about Hermione as Ron is rather bad at hiding his emotions but because it related to her its like a insecure or pessimistic part of Hermione refused to see what was obvious and that Ron had feelings for her.
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