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Peter Pettigrew, the Marauders and Secret Keepers
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Wildflower



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
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Location: Shuttling between France and the US

PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:49 am    Post subject: Peter Pettigrew, aka Wormtail, the Marauders & the Order Reply with quote

Romione wrote:
Perhaps a separate thread for the discussion about Pettigrew? I was enjoying that discussion and would like to respond to The Shuttle's post

Here you are, dear. Very Happy

I split the thread, now you can pick up where you and the others left off, speculating not only about Pettigrew but also Dumbledore, Secret Keeping, and what would have happened if Voldie hadn't tried to kill Harry and become Vapormort.
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Romione



Joined: 28 May 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Secret Keeper Reply with quote

Thanks Wildflower!

The Shuttle wrote:
I don't think it'd have been easy to trick Dumbledore. Though I still wonder at his letting Sirius be sentenced to Azkaban without double-checking his guilt.

Possible but, with all due respect, too complicated and convoluted. Whether it was Pettigrew himself, or Voldemort impersonating Pettigrew, I find it hard to believe Dumbledore could be fooled that easily into revealing a secret of such overwhelming importance - and deadly danger. He knew that there could only be one Secret Keeper, and for good reason. He may have been drawn to sharing the secret with maybe another member of the Order (say, the Weasleys or the Longbottoms) and, following your hypothesis, then either Voldie or Pettigrew could Polyjuice themselves into whoever he told (or wrote) to get the secret - but I think DD was too smart to fall for it.


Well, Crouch Jr. managed to trick Dumbledore for 9 months. Dumbledore wasn't infallible after all. And Pettigrew was more clever than he allowed anyone to see. I do agree that trying to manipulate the situation so Dumbledore would write a note for Pettigrew is the least likely option because it would be more convoluted. However, I could easily see Voldemort impersonating Pettigrew or Pettigrew simply telling Voldemort when the charm would be cast so Voldemort could attack before it was in place - the latter seems most likely to me because it would be the simplest option.

However, I think the main point is that Pettigrew would have found a way no matter what he had to do. He felt his life depended on it and that would have made him determined to succeed. I don't really see that as an issue of how smart Dumbledore was because we see over the course of the series that Dumbledore could be fooled - and was fooled by Pettigrew along with everyone else - and that he made mistakes. The fact that nobody - including Dumbledore - ever realized that Pettigrew was the spy is a testament to Pettigrew being a lot more clever than any of them realized, IMO.

Quote:
It's all speculation anyway. Canon fact is, Pettigrew was made Secret Keeper, to the woe of everyone involved. Including Voldie, since it eventually led to his defeat and death.


Very true.

Quote:
Now that leads to another interesting speculation. How long would Voldemort have lasted if he hadn't tried to kill Harry? He wouldn't have become Vapormort, and he had his strong group of DEs behind him. They proved themselves a match against the Order. It would have been a long war. Until Harry came into enough power, found out about the Horcruxes, and defeated him. Which would probably as long as it took in the books, but with the story developing differently. super grin


That's a good question. I think - in that event - it would have been Voldemort who sent the diary to the school in the hands of a student back in 80's. That was his plan - Lucius just carried it out to serve his own ends when he thought Voldemort was gone for good. Voldemort may still have used Lucius to accomplish that - that was why he gave Lucius the diary - but it would have been done on his orders in that event. I think that would have led to Dumbledore figuring out Voldemort had multiple Horcruxes a lot sooner. Though it could still have taken years for him to track them all down.
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Hedwig



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:22 am    Post subject: Tom Riddle's diary Reply with quote

Romione wrote:
Quote:
Now that leads to another interesting speculation. How long would Voldemort have lasted if he hadn't tried to kill Harry? He wouldn't have become Vapormort, and he had his strong group of DEs behind him. They proved themselves a match against the Order. It would have been a long war. Until Harry came into enough power, found out about the Horcruxes, and defeated him. Which would probably as long as it took in the books, but with the story developing differently. super grin


That's a good question. I think - in that event - it would have been Voldemort who sent the diary to the school in the hands of a student back in 80's. That was his plan - Lucius just carried it out to serve his own ends when he thought Voldemort was gone for good. Voldemort may still have used Lucius to accomplish that - that was why he gave Lucius the diary - but it would have been done on his orders in that event. I think that would have led to Dumbledore figuring out Voldemort had multiple Horcruxes a lot sooner. Though it could still have taken years for him to track them all down.

It never was quite clear to me why Lucius put the diary in Ginny's book bag and what he was trying to accomplish. Did he know what the diary was? The pages were blank anyway. He certainly didn't know it was a Horcrux.

How did Lucius come by it (did LV actually give it to him? Telling him what?), how did he know it was a dangerous magical object, was he just trying to create mayhem at Hogwarts and especially for Harry? He must have talked about it at home, for Dobby to learn of his intentions and risk severe punishment by warning Harry. In fact, how much did Dobby actually know, about the diary and about Malfoy's plans? confused
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Romione



Joined: 28 May 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:29 am    Post subject: Re: Tom Riddle's diary Reply with quote

Hedwig wrote:
It never was quite clear to me why Lucius put the diary in Ginny's book bag and what he was trying to accomplish. Did he know what the diary was? The pages were blank anyway. He certainly didn't know it was a Horcrux.

How did Lucius come by it (did LV actually give it to him? Telling him what?), how did he know it was a dangerous magical object, was he just trying to create mayhem at Hogwarts and especially for Harry? He must have talked about it at home, for Dobby to learn of his intentions and risk severe punishment by warning Harry. In fact, how much did Dobby actually know, about the diary and about Malfoy's plans? confused


Dumbledore told Harry in HBP that it was actually Voldemort's plan to use the diary to control a student to re-open the Chamber of Secrets. Part of Lucius losing favor with Voldemort was due to him getting the diary destroyed by attempting to carry out that plan without Voldemort telling him to - which resulted in the diary being destroyed. Dumbledore was certain that Lucius did not know the diary was a Horcrux because he was careless with it - and he did seem to believe Voldemort was gone for good. All Lucius knew was that the diary could be used to control a student. That fits with Voldemort's thoughts in DH about it being a mistake to trust Lucius and Bellatrix with the diary and the cup as well.

Putting together what we learn in COS and HBP, we know that Voldemort gave Lucius the diary and told him about the plan to use it to control a student to re-open the Chamber. It does appear that Voldemort was planning on carrying out that plan around that time - possibly after he had dealt with the prophecy by killing Harry. Lucius would have the job of protecting the diary and then giving it to a student when Voldemort instructed him to do so.

Of course, that part didn't work out so well for Voldemort - he failed to kill Harry and ended up as Vapormort. Lucius held on to the diary and kept it safe until the events of COS, but didn't know what he actually had - or that he could use it to help Voldemort return. When Arthur started pushing the Muggle Protection Act through, Lucius decided to use the diary as a means to discredit Arthur and prevent that from being passed. He slipped the diary in with Ginny's school books - believing that one of Arthur's kids being caught opening the Chamber and using the monster to attack Muggleborns would be sufficient to discredit him. Unfortunately for Lucius, Harry saved Ginny and figured it all out - with the diary being destroyed in the process.

After Voldemort returned, it appears that Lucius managed to keep the destruction of the diary a secret for a while. But then we have the events at the DoM and Lucius ended up getting sent to Azkaban. Somewhere around that time, Voldemort discovered that Lucius had attempted to carry out the plan with the diary without permission and was furious that one of his Horcruxes had been destroyed as a result. The failure at the Dom and the diary being destroyed led Voldemort to choose Draco for the assignment of killing Dumbledore. If Draco succeeded, Voldemort would forgive everything. If Draco failed - which is what Voldemort expected - he would either die in the attempt or be sent to Azkaban and that would be a punishment for Lucius.
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Hedwig



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 5:19 pm    Post subject: LV and the Malfoys (and other DEs) Reply with quote

So when LV entrusted the diary to the Malfoys, was he expecting to run into trouble? How come he trusted the Malfoys so much? Actually, I guess he trusted Bellatrix more than he did Lucius and Narcissa. It was in Bellatrix's vault that the Trio found the Hufflepuff Cup. Supposedly he had to entrust his treasured possessions to someone who had a Gringotts vault (which the Gaunts were too poor to afford, I guess) or had somewhere safe, like Malfoy Manor, to keep them. Though he did leave the ring in the old Gaunt cottage.

What also puzzles me is how all those purebloods came under the power and spell of a half-blood and followed him so slavishly, when they logically would have looked down on him for having a Muggle father, who was, to boot, tricked into begetting him.

All those purebloods willing to take punishment, including the Cruciatus, from a half-blood... Or from anyone for that matter. They must all have been masochists to stick with him. Rolling Eyes
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Proud Puff



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:48 pm    Post subject: How did Wormtail end up in Gryffindor? Reply with quote

How come the Sorting Hat put Pettigrew in Gryffindor? He wasn't brave, he wasn't loyal to his friends. He betrayed them to save his own skin.

IMO it wasn't brave to cut off his own hand, Voldemort would have done worse to him if he hadn't. He had the promise of a new one anyway. Being able to withstand pain is not being brave. He was craven in that scene in the Shrieking Shack, groveling and begging for his life.

His cunning should have put him in Slytherin, IMO. He did have one ambition: staying alive. Also always being with the strongest so as to protect his precious skin. That's an ambition of sorts, being part of the strongest and/or most popular group.

He was smart, yes, but not the kind of smart that lands you in Ravenclaw. He certainly didn't belong in Hufflepuff. He should have been in Slytherin, but then the other three Marauders would never have befriended him so he would never have been able to betray the Potters.
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Romione



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:16 am    Post subject: Re: How did Wormtail end up in Gryffindor? Reply with quote

Hedwig wrote:
So when LV entrusted the diary to the Malfoys, was he expecting to run into trouble? How come he trusted the Malfoys so much? Actually, I guess he trusted Bellatrix more than he did Lucius and Narcissa. It was in Bellatrix's vault that the Trio found the Hufflepuff Cup. Supposedly he had to entrust his treasured possessions to someone who had a Gringotts vault (which the Gaunts were too poor to afford, I guess) or had somewhere safe, like Malfoy Manor, to keep them. Though he did leave the ring in the old Gaunt cottage.


I don't think Voldemort was expecting trouble specifically. He wanted to hide the Horcruxes and he didn't tell anyone that he had made Horcruxes because they kept him alive. As Dumbledore said, Voldemort was always on the lookout for enemies and didn't really trust anyone. Lucius and Bellatrix never new what they had. Voldemort gave the cup to Bellatrix because the Lestrange vault at Gringotts was highly secured and I think Harry was right that he liked having something of his at Gringotts because he had never had a vault of his own there - being poor in his youth and all. But it does not appear that he ever told Bellatrix what it was.

Giving the diary to Lucius was more about the plan to use it to re-open the Chamber - that was the one Horcrux Voldemort didn't protect because he planned to use it. And I think he knew there would be a risk of it getting destroyed. I think that's part of why he was so furious with Lucius for carrying out that plan without being instructed to do so. He felt a seven part soul would make him more powerful and Lucius got one part destroyed at a time when he had been weakened.

Quote:
What also puzzles me is how all those purebloods came under the power and spell of a half-blood and followed him so slavishly, when they logically would have looked down on him for having a Muggle father, who was, to boot, tricked into begetting him.

All those purebloods willing to take punishment, including the Cruciatus, from a half-blood... Or from anyone for that matter. They must all have been masochists to stick with him. Rolling Eyes


Well, this was partly addressed in HBP. They would accept half-bloods who had a pure-blood parent and believed the pure-blood ideology. What Voldemort had going for him was the fact that his mother was not only a pure-blood, she was also one of the last descendents of Salazar Slytherin. He used his ancestor's notoriety to build his own. And he was one of the most powerful wizards around - I think only Dumbledore and Grindelwald would have been more powerful than Voldemort. The Death Eaters rallied around him as their leader because he told them what they wanted to hear. They feared him because he was so powerful - which also made them believe he could get them what they wanted.

I think it's rather ironic because Voldemort was proof that the pure-blood ideology was wrong - and he knew it. He only adopted that ideology to gain support from people like the Malfoys and the Blacks who believed in it. But none of the Death Eaters who believed in the pure-blood ideology realized that. I love irony like that.

Proud Puff wrote:
How come the Sorting Hat put Pettigrew in Gryffindor? He wasn't brave, he wasn't loyal to his friends. He betrayed them to save his own skin.

IMO it wasn't brave to cut off his own hand, Voldemort would have done worse to him if he hadn't. He had the promise of a new one anyway. Being able to withstand pain is not being brave. He was craven in that scene in the Shrieking Shack, groveling and begging for his life.

His cunning should have put him in Slytherin, IMO. He did have one ambition: staying alive. Also always being with the strongest so as to protect his precious skin. That's an ambition of sorts, being part of the strongest and/or most popular group.

He was smart, yes, but not the kind of smart that lands you in Ravenclaw. He certainly didn't belong in Hufflepuff. He should have been in Slytherin, but then the other three Marauders would never have befriended him so he would never have been able to betray the Potters.


I agree that Pettigrew did not have the level of intelligence that would fit for Ravenclaw and he certainly was not hard working or loyal so he wouldn't fit into Hufflepuff. But I don't think he would really fit into Slytherin either. I wouldn't consider the desire to stay alive an ambition really. Not the type of power hungry ambition ascribed to Slytherin house. Pettigrew was cunning, but he was also content to be the low man on the totem pole and get kicked around as long as he was allowed to live. He wasn't trying to attain wealth or power or fame. He wasn't on his way to greatness - as the Sorting Hat mentioned to Harry in PS/SS. Pettigrew was merely existing and willing to let people treat him like dirt to go on existing. That doesn't say Slytherin to me because I think it takes more than being cunning to be a Slytherin.

I do think it did take courage to cut off his own hand - even with the fear of something worse being done to him by Voldemort because he did that to himself. Voldemort couldn't feel the pain he was causing to Pettigrew where Pettigrew could feel the pain he was causing himself, but he carried on with that. It also took courage for him to go undercover and spy on his friends - particularly knowing how they would react and what they would do if they caught him. It took courage for him to confront Sirius face to face when he set him up to take the fall - particularly with him knowing that Sirius was the better dueler and that Sirius knew the truth.

Courage is not always something good. It takes courage to do bad things as well. That's why Draco couldn't kill Dumbledore on the tower in HBP - he lacked the courage it takes to kill someone face to face when the situation wasn't going exactly as he planned it to. What Pettigrew lacked was the nobility that would enable him to use his courage to do good things. He was selfish and put himself first. And I think he did consider himself a coward because of that, but he didn't really care as long as he kept himself alive. That was a similarity between Pettigrew and Neville, but what made the difference was that Neville did have nobility and that enabled him to realize his own courage and use it to do good things.

Taking all that into consideration, I think Pettigrew was sorted into Gryffindor simply because he did not truly fit in anywhere. Out of all the traits given for the four houses at Hogwarts, the only one Pettigrew had in any capacity was courage - and even that was limited. Gryffindor was the only place to put him I think.

Another factor is Pettigrew's blood status - we don't know if he was pure-blood, half-blood, or muggleborn. If he was muggleborn, that would probably keep him out of Slytherin because the Sorting Hat was magically bound to sort the students based on what the founders wanted and Salazar Slytherin did not want muggleborns in his house. I still don't think being cunning would be enough for him to fit - but he didn't truly fit into Gryffindor either so that's certainly a possibility.
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The Shuttle



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 1:03 am    Post subject: Re: How did Wormtail end up in Gryffindor? Reply with quote

Romione wrote:
Another factor is Pettigrew's blood status - we don't know if he was pure-blood, half-blood, or muggleborn. If he was muggleborn, that would probably keep him out of Slytherin because the Sorting Hat was magically bound to sort the students based on what the founders wanted and Salazar Slytherin did not want muggleborns in his house. I still don't think being cunning would be enough for him to fit - but he didn't truly fit into Gryffindor either so that's certainly a possibility.

I can't know for sure of course but I have a feeling he was pureblood. Possibly half-blood, but I don't see him at all as muggleborn. I'm not sure Voldemort would have taken him on if he'd been muggleborn. Practically all of the Death Eaters are pureblood, as far as I can tell. Snape, of course, is half-blood, as is Voldemort himself. But they are exceptionally gifted half-bloods. Voldemort wouldn't take on any half-blood who wasn't a talented wizard or witch, imo. But he'd take incompetent purebloods like the Carrows just because of their blood status. That's what, to me, comes out of the whole DE set-up.
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Griffiegirl



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 1:28 am    Post subject: Re: How did Wormtail end up in Gryffindor? Reply with quote

Proud Puff wrote:
How come the Sorting Hat put Pettigrew in Gryffindor? He wasn't brave, he wasn't loyal to his friends. He betrayed them to save his own skin.

That's a case of Mis-Sorting by the Hat IMO. Or a plot ploy by Jo. As has been said before, she needed the traitor to be close enough to James and Lily to get their trust. They'd never have made a Slytherin their Secret Keeper, even if they had (unlikely as it is) befriended one.

About Sorting, what do you think about Gilderoy Lockart possibly having been a Ravenclaw?
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Strawberry07



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 8:50 am    Post subject: Re: How did Wormtail end up in Gryffindor? Reply with quote

I think Romione makes a good point about how Peter ended up in Gryffindor by default, essentially. I imagine he was not the only character sorted by default. Gryffindor was the House Peter was least unsuitable for, and surely others with inexplicable Sortings were in the same boat - like Crabbe and Goyle, like Zacharias Smith.



The Shuttle wrote:
Romione wrote:
Another factor is Pettigrew's blood status - we don't know if he was pure-blood, half-blood, or muggleborn. If he was muggleborn, that would probably keep him out of Slytherin because the Sorting Hat was magically bound to sort the students based on what the founders wanted and Salazar Slytherin did not want muggleborns in his house. I still don't think being cunning would be enough for him to fit - but he didn't truly fit into Gryffindor either so that's certainly a possibility.

I can't know for sure of course but I have a feeling he was pureblood. Possibly half-blood, but I don't see him at all as muggleborn. I'm not sure Voldemort would have taken him on if he'd been muggleborn. Practically all of the Death Eaters are pureblood, as far as I can tell. Snape, of course, is half-blood, as is Voldemort himself. But they are exceptionally gifted half-bloods. Voldemort wouldn't take on any half-blood who wasn't a talented wizard or witch, imo. But he'd take incompetent purebloods like the Carrows just because of their blood status. That's what, to me, comes out of the whole DE set-up.



In Peter Pettigrew's case, I don't think Voldemort would have cared about blood status - he needed someone close to the Potters, and Pettigrew was the weak link, the one who gave him the goods and turned on his friends. Although, I doubt he would have given a Muggleborn the "honour" of the Dark Mark.

I totally agree with what you say about Voldemort accepting incompetent purebloods, but only exceptionally skilled half bloods. It's yet another example of how messed up and hypocritical their organisation was.



GriffieGirl, I think Lockhart may have been a Gryffindor. I think we need a DADA villain from each House - Quirrell was Ravenclaw - intelligence used in the wrong way. Barty Jr.may have been Hufflepuff -loyalty used in the wrong way. Umbridge, I think, was a Slytherin -ambition used in the wrong way. Lockhart, doesn't seem to have had much courage, but he wanted to be seen as brave. Plus, it takes a certain kind of courage to attack powerful witches and wizards that have defeated all kinds of threats and emerged victorious from all kinds of dangerous situations.
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