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Peter Pettigrew, the Marauders and Secret Keepers
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Romione



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:16 am    Post subject: Peter Pettigrew, the Marauders and Secret Keepers Reply with quote

Hedwig wrote:
That's what I said on the previous page.

I wonder, though, how Pettigrew ever got to be part of the Marauders. He had nothing in common with the other three. How come they let him tag along, and how did he get them to trust him so completely? confused


Pettigrew makes me think of a chameleon in a way. He created an image for himself and was careful to stick to it. I think Sirius was spot on in his evaluation of Pettigrew in POA. When they were students, Pettigrew viewed James and Sirius as the BMOC and he wanted to be part of their group because of that. Being friends with them would give him protection in a lot of ways. Putting forth the image that he was a bit bumbling and not very intelligent created some sympathy - and the hero worship added to that because it catered to their egos I think. Not only did they give him the protection he wanted, they also helped him with his school work. I think Pettigrew was manipulating them all along.

Just to be clear, I don't think James and Sirius being arrogant and flattered by Pettigrew's hero worship act makes them horrible people. They were just immature teenage boys and they eventually grew out of that from what we're shown.
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inkling7
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:22 am    Post subject: What about Remus? Reply with quote

They James and Sirius were going through their arrogant toe-rag phase then eh! But what about Remus? He must have felt sorry for Peter too or could at least sympathise with his feelings of being a bit different but at least Remus didn't come across as being an arrogant toe-rag but seemed rather weak for not telling the others to stop making fun of Severus.....
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Romione



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:23 am    Post subject: Re: What about Remus? Reply with quote

inkling7 wrote:
They James and Sirius were going through their arrogant toe-rag phase then eh! But what about Remus? He must have felt sorry for Peter too or could at least sympathise with his feelings of being a bit different but at least Remus didn't come across as being an arrogant toe-rag but seemed rather weak for not telling the others to stop making fun of Severus.....


From Pettigrew's perspective, I don't think Lupin was really an issue either way. James and Sirius would have been the ones he focused on because they stood out more. From what we're shown, Pettigrew's hero-worship act was limited entirely to James and Sirius. I think Lupin was simply part of the package in Pettigrew's view.

However, I would agree that Lupin was sympathetic to Pettigrew - or rather the image that Pettigrew presented to them. Lupin strikes me as being more compassionate than his friends in general - particularly in those days. And Sirius also mentioned that Lupin did make them feel ashamed of themselves sometimes - which reveals that he wasn't a total doormat and at least lectured them about their behavior. In that respect, I think Lupin was probably very similar to Hermione - particularly with James and Sirius being the first real friends he ever had. The difference with Lupin is that his issues with being a werewolf made him feel like an outcast - he saw himself as a monster and was extremely grateful that James and Sirius remained friends with him after they found out he was a werewolf so he had a tendency to try to avoid conflict with them I think. And considering the general attitude towards werewolves by the wizarding world as a whole, I can see why he would feel that way.

Still, I think Lupin was the deciding factor in all of that even though Pettigrew probably didn't consider him all that significant. Feeling like an outcast himself made Lupin more compassionate so I can see him being the sympathetic one in regards to Pettigrew. I can also see him being the more logical one in the group - i.e. thinking it might be smarter to include Pettigrew in their adventures because they shared a dorm room. Lupin jokes about how he "failed dismally" in regards to having any influence over James and Sirius, but I think he had more influence than he realized - particularly with Sirius admitting that Lupin did make them feel ashamed sometimes. So I can see Lupin being the one to convince James and Sirius to give Pettigrew a chance.
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Hedwig



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:16 am    Post subject: Re: What about Remus? Reply with quote

Romione wrote:
So I can see Lupin being the one to convince James and Sirius to give Pettigrew a chance.

More fool he, hmphh!

I see your point, though, about the reason for his compassion and acceptance of Pettigrew. The fact that his animagus form was a rat should have been a warning sign, IMO.

There is also the theory that it's all a plot ploy by JKR - she needed someone close enough to James and Lily, and who better than another Marauder, to learn their secrets so as to be able to betray them. So in comes Wormtail.

Still, making him Secret Keeper was really taking an enormous chance. Sirius should have known better than to suggest it.
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Romione



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:59 pm    Post subject: Re: What about Remus? Reply with quote

Hedwig wrote:
More fool he, hmphh!

I see your point, though, about the reason for his compassion and acceptance of Pettigrew. The fact that his animagus form was a rat should have been a warning sign, IMO.

There is also the theory that it's all a plot ploy by JKR - she needed someone close enough to James and Lily, and who better than another Marauder, to learn their secrets so as to be able to betray them. So in comes Wormtail.

Still, making him Secret Keeper was really taking an enormous chance. Sirius should have known better than to suggest it.


Well, that is certainly what Sirius felt in hindsight. I don't think it was quite that simple though. It's very easy to look back after the fact and see little things you missed and kick yourself for that. But it's not so easy in the moment when you don't know what's going to happen next.

Pettigrew didn't just fool the Marauders - he fooled everybody. Including Dumbledore. Everyone bought his act - the bumbling friend who hero worshipped James and Sirius. Pettigrew was very clever and he hid that very well so nobody ever considered the possibility that he would betray his friends - just as nobody ever considered the possibility that James might have made him secret keeper instead of Sirius because of the circumstantial evidence. Even Lupin didn't think of that. It wasn't until he saw Pettigrew on the Marauder's Map in POA that Lupin realized what must have happened.

I think that speaks more towards how well Pettigrew played his role than any shortcoming of the Marauders in general because they weren't the only people who fell for the act. Pettigrew was very careful. They had been friends for over 10 years at that point and Pettigrew had never given them any reason to think he was untrustworthy. He had kept their secrets and always did what they expected him to. They did believe that Pettigrew was mediocre as a wizard because he always presented that image, but they also loved him like a brother and believed he felt the same.

That's why James and Sirius thought the switch was such a great plan. Voldemort would focus on Sirius - and Sirius intended to lead Voldemort on a merry chase - while Pettigrew was safely hidden away like the Potters. If Pettigrew had been the friend they believed him to be, that would have worked brilliantly I think. But Pettigrew wasn't - and he had stopped seeing James and Sirius as the BMOC at that point. Pettigrew believed Voldemort was going to win and that's what made the difference for him. Sirius figured Pettigrew out and his analysis that Pettigrew would always side with who he considered the biggest and the strongest was spot on - but it wasn't something he would have realized with only the information they had back in 1981. That was something they could only figure out once Pettigrew had betrayed them.
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inkling7
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:01 pm    Post subject: Rat or Snake? Reply with quote

Hmm I was born in the year of the rat but would have certainly told the toe-rags off like Lily did. I may be cunning but I'm very loyal to friends and family. But enough of that... super grin

What sort of puzzles me is why they didn't consider getting Lupin to be the secret keeper or even Hagrid instead of Peter who must also have been born in the year of the rat or more appropriately the year of the snake as he really was a snake in the grass wasn't he......
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Romione



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:33 pm    Post subject: Secret Keeper Reply with quote

inkling7 wrote:
Hmm I was born in the year of the rat but would have certainly told the toe-rags off like Lily did. I may be cunning but I'm very loyal to friends and family. But enough of that... super grin

What sort of puzzles me is why they didn't consider getting Lupin to be the secret keeper or even Hagrid instead of Peter who must also have been born in the year of the rat or more appropriately the year of the snake as he really was a snake in the grass wasn't he......


That was addressed in POA. Sirius thought Lupin was the spy. They never got into why Sirius came to suspect Lupin, but it was implied there was a good reason with the way Lupin forgave him for it and asked Sirius to forgive him for believing that he was the spy. It seems likely that Dumbledore would have asked Lupin to infiltrate the werewolves in the first war as well so it might be that Lupin's absences made Sirius suspicious. Pettigrew never gave them any reason to be suspicious.

I think Hagrid's reputation works against him for situations like this. Nobody would make Hagrid a secret keeper because he has a tendency to let things slip. It was never intentional, but that would be a problem in regards to being a secret keeper. I think Dumbledore and Harry were the only people who really trusted Hagrid - but I doubt even they would have made him a secret keeper.

Sirius also said in POA that they those Pettigrew because they didn't think Voldemort would ever suspect him of being chosen to be the secret keeper for the Potters. Pettigrew was regarded as mediocre by everyone. They figured Voldemort would expect James to choose Sirius - and Sirius was the obvious choice. So the plan was to use that and make everyone believe Sirius had been made secret keeper. Pettigrew would be safely hidden away and Sirius would lead Voldemort and the Death Eaters on a merry chase - putting his own life at risk to protect the Potters as well as Pettigrew.
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inkling7
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:22 pm    Post subject: Secret Keeper Reply with quote

Well after all that I can only surmise that it is a shame that Dumbledore wasn't made the secret keeper then but if that had been the case there wouldn't have been much of a story left to tell would it...LOL super grin
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Romione



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 7:59 am    Post subject: Secret Keeper Reply with quote

inkling7 wrote:
Well after all that I can only surmise that it is a shame that Dumbledore wasn't made the secret keeper then but if that had been the case there wouldn't have been much of a story left to tell would it...LOL super grin


Honestly, I don't think it would have really changed much if they had made Dumbledore secret keeper because of Pettigrew. He had been spying for Voldemort for over a year at that point and he was afraid Voldemort would kill him if he didn't give him information or failed in any way. Pettigrew valued his own life above all else and he was a lot more cunning then any of them realized so I think he would have found a way to get Voldemort to the Potters regardless of who was made secret keeper. I think James would have wanted his friends to be told the secret and it seems likely that at least some of the Order would have to be told since James and Lily couldn't leave the house.

There were ways that Pettigrew could have tricked Dumbledore. Se see in OOTP that the secret keeper could write the secret down to reveal it when Moody shows Harry Dumbledore's note. If Pettigrew could think of a way to get Dumbledore to write the secret down for him, he could have simply shown Voldemort the note. That would be more complicated and probably involve using a Confundus charm on whoever gave him the note, but it's possible. Voldemort could also have used Polyjuice potion to impersonate Pettigrew and be told the secret in person. However, I think it's more likely that Pettigrew would simply have told Voldemort that they were going to use Dumbledore as secret keeper and when they planned to cast the charm so Voldemort could attack them before the Fidelius Charm was in place. Pettigrew had the Dark Mark so he could contact Voldemort immediately - at which point, Voldemort could simply apparate to Godric's Hollow and attack.
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The Shuttle



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:37 am    Post subject: Re: Secret Keeper Reply with quote

Romione wrote:
There were ways that Pettigrew could have tricked Dumbledore.

I don't think it'd have been easy to trick Dumbledore. Though I still wonder at his letting Sirius be sentenced to Azkaban without double-checking his guilt.

Quote:
We see in OOTP that the secret keeper could write the secret down to reveal it when Moody shows Harry Dumbledore's note. If Pettigrew could think of a way to get Dumbledore to write the secret down for him, he could have simply shown Voldemort the note. That would be more complicated and probably involve using a Confundus charm on whoever gave him the note, but it's possible. Voldemort could also have used Polyjuice potion to impersonate Pettigrew and be told the secret in person. However, I think it's more likely that Pettigrew would simply have told Voldemort that they were going to use Dumbledore as secret keeper and when they planned to cast the charm so Voldemort could attack them before the Fidelius Charm was in place. Pettigrew had the Dark Mark so he could contact Voldemort immediately - at which point, Voldemort could simply apparate to Godric's Hollow and attack.

Possible but, with all due respect, too complicated and convoluted. Whether it was Pettigrew himself, or Voldemort impersonating Pettigrew, I find it hard to believe Dumbledore could be fooled that easily into revealing a secret of such overwhelming importance - and deadly danger. He knew that there could only be one Secret Keeper, and for good reason. He may have been drawn to sharing the secret with maybe another member of the Order (say, the Weasleys or the Longbottoms) and, following your hypothesis, then either Voldie or Pettigrew could Polyjuice themselves into whoever he told (or wrote) to get the secret - but I think DD was too smart to fall for it.

It's all speculation anyway. Canon fact is, Pettigrew was made Secret Keeper, to the woe of everyone involved. Including Voldie, since it eventually led to his defeat and death.

Now that leads to another interesting speculation. How long would Voldemort have lasted if he hadn't tried to kill Harry? He wouldn't have become Vapormort, and he had his strong group of DEs behind him. They proved themselves a match against the Order. It would have been a long war. Until Harry came into enough power, found out about the Horcruxes, and defeated him. Which would probably as long as it took in the books, but with the story developing differently. super grin
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