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Peter Pettigrew, the Marauders and Secret Keepers
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Romione



Joined: 28 May 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:16 pm    Post subject: Peter Pettigrew, the Marauders and Secret Keepers Reply with quote

Hedwig wrote:
That's what I said on the previous page.

I wonder, though, how Pettigrew ever got to be part of the Marauders. He had nothing in common with the other three. How come they let him tag along, and how did he get them to trust him so completely? confused


Pettigrew makes me think of a chameleon in a way. He created an image for himself and was careful to stick to it. I think Sirius was spot on in his evaluation of Pettigrew in POA. When they were students, Pettigrew viewed James and Sirius as the BMOC and he wanted to be part of their group because of that. Being friends with them would give him protection in a lot of ways. Putting forth the image that he was a bit bumbling and not very intelligent created some sympathy - and the hero worship added to that because it catered to their egos I think. Not only did they give him the protection he wanted, they also helped him with his school work. I think Pettigrew was manipulating them all along.

Just to be clear, I don't think James and Sirius being arrogant and flattered by Pettigrew's hero worship act makes them horrible people. They were just immature teenage boys and they eventually grew out of that from what we're shown.
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inkling7



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:22 pm    Post subject: What about Remus? Reply with quote

They James and Sirius were going through their arrogant toe-rag phase then eh! But what about Remus? He must have felt sorry for Peter too or could at least sympathise with his feelings of being a bit different but at least Remus didn't come across as being an arrogant toe-rag but seemed rather weak for not telling the others to stop making fun of Severus.....
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Romione



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:23 am    Post subject: Re: What about Remus? Reply with quote

inkling7 wrote:
They James and Sirius were going through their arrogant toe-rag phase then eh! But what about Remus? He must have felt sorry for Peter too or could at least sympathise with his feelings of being a bit different but at least Remus didn't come across as being an arrogant toe-rag but seemed rather weak for not telling the others to stop making fun of Severus.....


From Pettigrew's perspective, I don't think Lupin was really an issue either way. James and Sirius would have been the ones he focused on because they stood out more. From what we're shown, Pettigrew's hero-worship act was limited entirely to James and Sirius. I think Lupin was simply part of the package in Pettigrew's view.

However, I would agree that Lupin was sympathetic to Pettigrew - or rather the image that Pettigrew presented to them. Lupin strikes me as being more compassionate than his friends in general - particularly in those days. And Sirius also mentioned that Lupin did make them feel ashamed of themselves sometimes - which reveals that he wasn't a total doormat and at least lectured them about their behavior. In that respect, I think Lupin was probably very similar to Hermione - particularly with James and Sirius being the first real friends he ever had. The difference with Lupin is that his issues with being a werewolf made him feel like an outcast - he saw himself as a monster and was extremely grateful that James and Sirius remained friends with him after they found out he was a werewolf so he had a tendency to try to avoid conflict with them I think. And considering the general attitude towards werewolves by the wizarding world as a whole, I can see why he would feel that way.

Still, I think Lupin was the deciding factor in all of that even though Pettigrew probably didn't consider him all that significant. Feeling like an outcast himself made Lupin more compassionate so I can see him being the sympathetic one in regards to Pettigrew. I can also see him being the more logical one in the group - i.e. thinking it might be smarter to include Pettigrew in their adventures because they shared a dorm room. Lupin jokes about how he "failed dismally" in regards to having any influence over James and Sirius, but I think he had more influence than he realized - particularly with Sirius admitting that Lupin did make them feel ashamed sometimes. So I can see Lupin being the one to convince James and Sirius to give Pettigrew a chance.
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Hedwig



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:16 am    Post subject: Re: What about Remus? Reply with quote

Romione wrote:
So I can see Lupin being the one to convince James and Sirius to give Pettigrew a chance.

More fool he, hmphh!

I see your point, though, about the reason for his compassion and acceptance of Pettigrew. The fact that his animagus form was a rat should have been a warning sign, IMO.

There is also the theory that it's all a plot ploy by JKR - she needed someone close enough to James and Lily, and who better than another Marauder, to learn their secrets so as to be able to betray them. So in comes Wormtail.

Still, making him Secret Keeper was really taking an enormous chance. Sirius should have known better than to suggest it.
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Romione



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 12:59 pm    Post subject: Re: What about Remus? Reply with quote

Hedwig wrote:
More fool he, hmphh!

I see your point, though, about the reason for his compassion and acceptance of Pettigrew. The fact that his animagus form was a rat should have been a warning sign, IMO.

There is also the theory that it's all a plot ploy by JKR - she needed someone close enough to James and Lily, and who better than another Marauder, to learn their secrets so as to be able to betray them. So in comes Wormtail.

Still, making him Secret Keeper was really taking an enormous chance. Sirius should have known better than to suggest it.


Well, that is certainly what Sirius felt in hindsight. I don't think it was quite that simple though. It's very easy to look back after the fact and see little things you missed and kick yourself for that. But it's not so easy in the moment when you don't know what's going to happen next.

Pettigrew didn't just fool the Marauders - he fooled everybody. Including Dumbledore. Everyone bought his act - the bumbling friend who hero worshipped James and Sirius. Pettigrew was very clever and he hid that very well so nobody ever considered the possibility that he would betray his friends - just as nobody ever considered the possibility that James might have made him secret keeper instead of Sirius because of the circumstantial evidence. Even Lupin didn't think of that. It wasn't until he saw Pettigrew on the Marauder's Map in POA that Lupin realized what must have happened.

I think that speaks more towards how well Pettigrew played his role than any shortcoming of the Marauders in general because they weren't the only people who fell for the act. Pettigrew was very careful. They had been friends for over 10 years at that point and Pettigrew had never given them any reason to think he was untrustworthy. He had kept their secrets and always did what they expected him to. They did believe that Pettigrew was mediocre as a wizard because he always presented that image, but they also loved him like a brother and believed he felt the same.

That's why James and Sirius thought the switch was such a great plan. Voldemort would focus on Sirius - and Sirius intended to lead Voldemort on a merry chase - while Pettigrew was safely hidden away like the Potters. If Pettigrew had been the friend they believed him to be, that would have worked brilliantly I think. But Pettigrew wasn't - and he had stopped seeing James and Sirius as the BMOC at that point. Pettigrew believed Voldemort was going to win and that's what made the difference for him. Sirius figured Pettigrew out and his analysis that Pettigrew would always side with who he considered the biggest and the strongest was spot on - but it wasn't something he would have realized with only the information they had back in 1981. That was something they could only figure out once Pettigrew had betrayed them.
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inkling7



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:01 pm    Post subject: Rat or Snake? Reply with quote

Hmm I was born in the year of the rat but would have certainly told the toe-rags off like Lily did. I may be cunning but I'm very loyal to friends and family. But enough of that... super grin

What sort of puzzles me is why they didn't consider getting Lupin to be the secret keeper or even Hagrid instead of Peter who must also have been born in the year of the rat or more appropriately the year of the snake as he really was a snake in the grass wasn't he......
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Romione



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:33 am    Post subject: Secret Keeper Reply with quote

inkling7 wrote:
Hmm I was born in the year of the rat but would have certainly told the toe-rags off like Lily did. I may be cunning but I'm very loyal to friends and family. But enough of that... super grin

What sort of puzzles me is why they didn't consider getting Lupin to be the secret keeper or even Hagrid instead of Peter who must also have been born in the year of the rat or more appropriately the year of the snake as he really was a snake in the grass wasn't he......


That was addressed in POA. Sirius thought Lupin was the spy. They never got into why Sirius came to suspect Lupin, but it was implied there was a good reason with the way Lupin forgave him for it and asked Sirius to forgive him for believing that he was the spy. It seems likely that Dumbledore would have asked Lupin to infiltrate the werewolves in the first war as well so it might be that Lupin's absences made Sirius suspicious. Pettigrew never gave them any reason to be suspicious.

I think Hagrid's reputation works against him for situations like this. Nobody would make Hagrid a secret keeper because he has a tendency to let things slip. It was never intentional, but that would be a problem in regards to being a secret keeper. I think Dumbledore and Harry were the only people who really trusted Hagrid - but I doubt even they would have made him a secret keeper.

Sirius also said in POA that they those Pettigrew because they didn't think Voldemort would ever suspect him of being chosen to be the secret keeper for the Potters. Pettigrew was regarded as mediocre by everyone. They figured Voldemort would expect James to choose Sirius - and Sirius was the obvious choice. So the plan was to use that and make everyone believe Sirius had been made secret keeper. Pettigrew would be safely hidden away and Sirius would lead Voldemort and the Death Eaters on a merry chase - putting his own life at risk to protect the Potters as well as Pettigrew.
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inkling7



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:22 pm    Post subject: Secret Keeper Reply with quote

Well after all that I can only surmise that it is a shame that Dumbledore wasn't made the secret keeper then but if that had been the case there wouldn't have been much of a story left to tell would it...LOL super grin
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Romione



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 5:59 am    Post subject: Secret Keeper Reply with quote

inkling7 wrote:
Well after all that I can only surmise that it is a shame that Dumbledore wasn't made the secret keeper then but if that had been the case there wouldn't have been much of a story left to tell would it...LOL super grin


Honestly, I don't think it would have really changed much if they had made Dumbledore secret keeper because of Pettigrew. He had been spying for Voldemort for over a year at that point and he was afraid Voldemort would kill him if he didn't give him information or failed in any way. Pettigrew valued his own life above all else and he was a lot more cunning then any of them realized so I think he would have found a way to get Voldemort to the Potters regardless of who was made secret keeper. I think James would have wanted his friends to be told the secret and it seems likely that at least some of the Order would have to be told since James and Lily couldn't leave the house.

There were ways that Pettigrew could have tricked Dumbledore. Se see in OOTP that the secret keeper could write the secret down to reveal it when Moody shows Harry Dumbledore's note. If Pettigrew could think of a way to get Dumbledore to write the secret down for him, he could have simply shown Voldemort the note. That would be more complicated and probably involve using a Confundus charm on whoever gave him the note, but it's possible. Voldemort could also have used Polyjuice potion to impersonate Pettigrew and be told the secret in person. However, I think it's more likely that Pettigrew would simply have told Voldemort that they were going to use Dumbledore as secret keeper and when they planned to cast the charm so Voldemort could attack them before the Fidelius Charm was in place. Pettigrew had the Dark Mark so he could contact Voldemort immediately - at which point, Voldemort could simply apparate to Godric's Hollow and attack.
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The Shuttle



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Secret Keeper Reply with quote

Romione wrote:
There were ways that Pettigrew could have tricked Dumbledore.

I don't think it'd have been easy to trick Dumbledore. Though I still wonder at his letting Sirius be sentenced to Azkaban without double-checking his guilt.

Quote:
We see in OOTP that the secret keeper could write the secret down to reveal it when Moody shows Harry Dumbledore's note. If Pettigrew could think of a way to get Dumbledore to write the secret down for him, he could have simply shown Voldemort the note. That would be more complicated and probably involve using a Confundus charm on whoever gave him the note, but it's possible. Voldemort could also have used Polyjuice potion to impersonate Pettigrew and be told the secret in person. However, I think it's more likely that Pettigrew would simply have told Voldemort that they were going to use Dumbledore as secret keeper and when they planned to cast the charm so Voldemort could attack them before the Fidelius Charm was in place. Pettigrew had the Dark Mark so he could contact Voldemort immediately - at which point, Voldemort could simply apparate to Godric's Hollow and attack.

Possible but, with all due respect, too complicated and convoluted. Whether it was Pettigrew himself, or Voldemort impersonating Pettigrew, I find it hard to believe Dumbledore could be fooled that easily into revealing a secret of such overwhelming importance - and deadly danger. He knew that there could only be one Secret Keeper, and for good reason. He may have been drawn to sharing the secret with maybe another member of the Order (say, the Weasleys or the Longbottoms) and, following your hypothesis, then either Voldie or Pettigrew could Polyjuice themselves into whoever he told (or wrote) to get the secret - but I think DD was too smart to fall for it.

It's all speculation anyway. Canon fact is, Pettigrew was made Secret Keeper, to the woe of everyone involved. Including Voldie, since it eventually led to his defeat and death.

Now that leads to another interesting speculation. How long would Voldemort have lasted if he hadn't tried to kill Harry? He wouldn't have become Vapormort, and he had his strong group of DEs behind him. They proved themselves a match against the Order. It would have been a long war. Until Harry came into enough power, found out about the Horcruxes, and defeated him. Which would probably as long as it took in the books, but with the story developing differently. super grin
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Wildflower



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:49 am    Post subject: Peter Pettigrew, aka Wormtail, the Marauders & the Order Reply with quote

Romione wrote:
Perhaps a separate thread for the discussion about Pettigrew? I was enjoying that discussion and would like to respond to The Shuttle's post

Here you are, dear. Very Happy

I split the thread, now you can pick up where you and the others left off, speculating not only about Pettigrew but also Dumbledore, Secret Keeping, and what would have happened if Voldie hadn't tried to kill Harry and become Vapormort.
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Romione



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 6:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Secret Keeper Reply with quote

Thanks Wildflower!

The Shuttle wrote:
I don't think it'd have been easy to trick Dumbledore. Though I still wonder at his letting Sirius be sentenced to Azkaban without double-checking his guilt.

Possible but, with all due respect, too complicated and convoluted. Whether it was Pettigrew himself, or Voldemort impersonating Pettigrew, I find it hard to believe Dumbledore could be fooled that easily into revealing a secret of such overwhelming importance - and deadly danger. He knew that there could only be one Secret Keeper, and for good reason. He may have been drawn to sharing the secret with maybe another member of the Order (say, the Weasleys or the Longbottoms) and, following your hypothesis, then either Voldie or Pettigrew could Polyjuice themselves into whoever he told (or wrote) to get the secret - but I think DD was too smart to fall for it.


Well, Crouch Jr. managed to trick Dumbledore for 9 months. Dumbledore wasn't infallible after all. And Pettigrew was more clever than he allowed anyone to see. I do agree that trying to manipulate the situation so Dumbledore would write a note for Pettigrew is the least likely option because it would be more convoluted. However, I could easily see Voldemort impersonating Pettigrew or Pettigrew simply telling Voldemort when the charm would be cast so Voldemort could attack before it was in place - the latter seems most likely to me because it would be the simplest option.

However, I think the main point is that Pettigrew would have found a way no matter what he had to do. He felt his life depended on it and that would have made him determined to succeed. I don't really see that as an issue of how smart Dumbledore was because we see over the course of the series that Dumbledore could be fooled - and was fooled by Pettigrew along with everyone else - and that he made mistakes. The fact that nobody - including Dumbledore - ever realized that Pettigrew was the spy is a testament to Pettigrew being a lot more clever than any of them realized, IMO.

Quote:
It's all speculation anyway. Canon fact is, Pettigrew was made Secret Keeper, to the woe of everyone involved. Including Voldie, since it eventually led to his defeat and death.


Very true.

Quote:
Now that leads to another interesting speculation. How long would Voldemort have lasted if he hadn't tried to kill Harry? He wouldn't have become Vapormort, and he had his strong group of DEs behind him. They proved themselves a match against the Order. It would have been a long war. Until Harry came into enough power, found out about the Horcruxes, and defeated him. Which would probably as long as it took in the books, but with the story developing differently. super grin


That's a good question. I think - in that event - it would have been Voldemort who sent the diary to the school in the hands of a student back in 80's. That was his plan - Lucius just carried it out to serve his own ends when he thought Voldemort was gone for good. Voldemort may still have used Lucius to accomplish that - that was why he gave Lucius the diary - but it would have been done on his orders in that event. I think that would have led to Dumbledore figuring out Voldemort had multiple Horcruxes a lot sooner. Though it could still have taken years for him to track them all down.
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Hedwig



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:22 am    Post subject: Tom Riddle's diary Reply with quote

Romione wrote:
Quote:
Now that leads to another interesting speculation. How long would Voldemort have lasted if he hadn't tried to kill Harry? He wouldn't have become Vapormort, and he had his strong group of DEs behind him. They proved themselves a match against the Order. It would have been a long war. Until Harry came into enough power, found out about the Horcruxes, and defeated him. Which would probably as long as it took in the books, but with the story developing differently. super grin


That's a good question. I think - in that event - it would have been Voldemort who sent the diary to the school in the hands of a student back in 80's. That was his plan - Lucius just carried it out to serve his own ends when he thought Voldemort was gone for good. Voldemort may still have used Lucius to accomplish that - that was why he gave Lucius the diary - but it would have been done on his orders in that event. I think that would have led to Dumbledore figuring out Voldemort had multiple Horcruxes a lot sooner. Though it could still have taken years for him to track them all down.

It never was quite clear to me why Lucius put the diary in Ginny's book bag and what he was trying to accomplish. Did he know what the diary was? The pages were blank anyway. He certainly didn't know it was a Horcrux.

How did Lucius come by it (did LV actually give it to him? Telling him what?), how did he know it was a dangerous magical object, was he just trying to create mayhem at Hogwarts and especially for Harry? He must have talked about it at home, for Dobby to learn of his intentions and risk severe punishment by warning Harry. In fact, how much did Dobby actually know, about the diary and about Malfoy's plans? confused
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Romione



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 7:29 am    Post subject: Re: Tom Riddle's diary Reply with quote

Hedwig wrote:
It never was quite clear to me why Lucius put the diary in Ginny's book bag and what he was trying to accomplish. Did he know what the diary was? The pages were blank anyway. He certainly didn't know it was a Horcrux.

How did Lucius come by it (did LV actually give it to him? Telling him what?), how did he know it was a dangerous magical object, was he just trying to create mayhem at Hogwarts and especially for Harry? He must have talked about it at home, for Dobby to learn of his intentions and risk severe punishment by warning Harry. In fact, how much did Dobby actually know, about the diary and about Malfoy's plans? confused


Dumbledore told Harry in HBP that it was actually Voldemort's plan to use the diary to control a student to re-open the Chamber of Secrets. Part of Lucius losing favor with Voldemort was due to him getting the diary destroyed by attempting to carry out that plan without Voldemort telling him to - which resulted in the diary being destroyed. Dumbledore was certain that Lucius did not know the diary was a Horcrux because he was careless with it - and he did seem to believe Voldemort was gone for good. All Lucius knew was that the diary could be used to control a student. That fits with Voldemort's thoughts in DH about it being a mistake to trust Lucius and Bellatrix with the diary and the cup as well.

Putting together what we learn in COS and HBP, we know that Voldemort gave Lucius the diary and told him about the plan to use it to control a student to re-open the Chamber. It does appear that Voldemort was planning on carrying out that plan around that time - possibly after he had dealt with the prophecy by killing Harry. Lucius would have the job of protecting the diary and then giving it to a student when Voldemort instructed him to do so.

Of course, that part didn't work out so well for Voldemort - he failed to kill Harry and ended up as Vapormort. Lucius held on to the diary and kept it safe until the events of COS, but didn't know what he actually had - or that he could use it to help Voldemort return. When Arthur started pushing the Muggle Protection Act through, Lucius decided to use the diary as a means to discredit Arthur and prevent that from being passed. He slipped the diary in with Ginny's school books - believing that one of Arthur's kids being caught opening the Chamber and using the monster to attack Muggleborns would be sufficient to discredit him. Unfortunately for Lucius, Harry saved Ginny and figured it all out - with the diary being destroyed in the process.

After Voldemort returned, it appears that Lucius managed to keep the destruction of the diary a secret for a while. But then we have the events at the DoM and Lucius ended up getting sent to Azkaban. Somewhere around that time, Voldemort discovered that Lucius had attempted to carry out the plan with the diary without permission and was furious that one of his Horcruxes had been destroyed as a result. The failure at the Dom and the diary being destroyed led Voldemort to choose Draco for the assignment of killing Dumbledore. If Draco succeeded, Voldemort would forgive everything. If Draco failed - which is what Voldemort expected - he would either die in the attempt or be sent to Azkaban and that would be a punishment for Lucius.
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Hedwig



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:19 pm    Post subject: LV and the Malfoys (and other DEs) Reply with quote

So when LV entrusted the diary to the Malfoys, was he expecting to run into trouble? How come he trusted the Malfoys so much? Actually, I guess he trusted Bellatrix more than he did Lucius and Narcissa. It was in Bellatrix's vault that the Trio found the Hufflepuff Cup. Supposedly he had to entrust his treasured possessions to someone who had a Gringotts vault (which the Gaunts were too poor to afford, I guess) or had somewhere safe, like Malfoy Manor, to keep them. Though he did leave the ring in the old Gaunt cottage.

What also puzzles me is how all those purebloods came under the power and spell of a half-blood and followed him so slavishly, when they logically would have looked down on him for having a Muggle father, who was, to boot, tricked into begetting him.

All those purebloods willing to take punishment, including the Cruciatus, from a half-blood... Or from anyone for that matter. They must all have been masochists to stick with him. Rolling Eyes
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