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The Psychotic Side of Nationalism
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Wildflower



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 6881
Location: Shuttling between France and the US

PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2005 10:11 am    Post subject: Who's to blame? Reply with quote

Le Saigonnais wrote:
They how many of you actually know that it was the British who invented "concentration camp" and "genocide"?


Actually, I knew that. The Brits don't have a very good record on human rights, up until WW1 - look at the way the wasted "colonial" troops, including Aussies, and their colonization of Southern Africa.

That doesn't make the Nazi atrocities any less abominable.

I never said nationalism and patriotism were the same - but in the movie I was talking about, they were entertwined.

Moreover, it's not "anti-nationalist" to oppose the gov't of a country you love, it's just anti- that gov't or its leader. On the other hand, one can be patriotic and love one's country but be willing to give up "nationalism" by favoring the integration of that country in a larger entity - like integrating the 25 members of the European Union into a single entity with a single constitution and a single President.

Going back briefly to the movie, I just discovered it was a telemovie, not a big screen release - and that it did get the award for best telemovie in 2004.
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X



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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2005 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What does "nationalism" mean? wonder
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Pols_R_Us



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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2005 3:23 pm    Post subject: Definition Reply with quote

X wrote:
What does "nationalism" mean? wonder


From the Concise Oxford English dictionary:

Nationalism: 1. patriotic feeling, principle or efforts > an extreme form of this marked by a feeling of superiority over other countries.
2. advocacy of political independence for a particular country.
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Le Saigonnais



Joined: 04 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2005 4:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Who's to blame? Reply with quote

Wildflower wrote:


That doesn't make the Nazi atrocities any less abominable.



No, but the Nazis and the government that represents them are long gone.

The British government that commits the inhumane atrocities is still the same government that runs Britain today.

It's the same thing with America. The sad thing is Americans still think that their enemy is Bin Laden. It's really the US government that is waging war against the American people.
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Wildflower



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
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Location: Shuttling between France and the US

PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2005 11:13 am    Post subject: Re: Who's to blame? Reply with quote

Le Saigonnais wrote:
The British government that commits the inhumane atrocities is still the same government that runs Britain today.


I'm not at all sure that's true, Saigonnais. The Brits now have a good record on immigration from Commonwealth countries, integration, etc. They don't run any concentration camp that I know of.

Sure there's still racism over there, but then there's still racism almost anywhere.
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Le Saigonnais



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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2005 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know of any revolution that toppled the British government in the last several hundred years.

While the British government has made numerous reforms, it still prefers to lie about its past like its American cousin does. The British and Americans were key theorists of eugenics and had made racial segregation respectable. The concentration camp was a British invention, and in Iraq and Afghanistan the British were the first to use air power to repress partisan resistance.

You forget, too, that British and US elites gave aid to the fascists. Bush's grandfather, prosecuted for "trading with the enemy" in 1942, was one of many powerful Anglo-Americans who liked Mussolini and Hitler and did what they could to help. Appeasement as a state policy was only the tip of an iceberg of practical aid to these dictatorships. Capital and technology flowed freely, and fascist despots received dignified treatment in Washington and London. Henry Ford made Hitler birthday gifts of 50,000 marks.
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Wildflower



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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2005 10:52 am    Post subject: Non-Violent Change is possible Reply with quote

Le Saigonnais wrote:
I don't know of any revolution that toppled the British government in the last several hundred years.


You don't need a revolution to change a government. I don't know of any concentration camp presently being run by the Brits, do you? Or any institutionalized oppression of a group of people?

Now the UK has become the haven of choice of thousands of would-be immigrants from its former colonies - Indians, Pakistanis, Ghaneans, Jamaicans, Kenyans, you name it. The French have a hard time at all ports across the Channel trying to find and block illegal immigrants from crossing to England.

The economic conditions are so good in England now that more and more European, including French, entrepreneurs are settling there. The taxes are less, there's more dynamism.
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Le Saigonnais



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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2005 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, those immigrants only exercised their rights to immigrate to the "Mother Country" as part of the British Commonwealth contract. So pointing fingers at England's numerous crimes now is like accusing their mother of abuse while living under the same roof with her. Besides, economic progress is never a good yardstick to measure a country's honesty no matter how much the government of that country use it to legitimize its political position. China's poverty level has gone down considerably in the last 20 years, but is China considered a successful and progressive nation?

The problem here is the British & American government are ignoring their own crimes in the past and continuing to legitimize warmaking to their own population. Movies, popular histories and political speeches frame all the wars as a symbol of Anglo-American courage.
Everything the Germans and other evil forces did was baaaadd to the bones, while everything that the "good guys" (England & America) did was good. The truth is Hitler's Lebensraum - his plan to turn eastern Europe into an America (where ethnic cleansing and slave labour created a frontier for settlement)- was an idea borrowed from America's West a full hundred year before. The Gestapo's torture was baaaddd but everything that the US Army does in Guantanamo and Abu Grhaib was justified.

The mass who believes that England went to war with Germany to save France and Poland is the same mass who still thinks Bush was telling the truth on Iraq, and about Saddam's involvement in 9/11.
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Last edited by Le Saigonnais on Mon May 16, 2005 4:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Le Saigonnais



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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2005 1:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Non-Violent Change is possible Reply with quote

Wildflower wrote:


You don't need a revolution to change a government. I don't know of any concentration camp presently being run by the Brits, do you? Or any institutionalized oppression of a group of people?



There is one in Gaza being run by the Americans by proxy for more than 5 decades now.
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Last edited by Le Saigonnais on Mon May 16, 2005 4:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Seed



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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Le Saigonnais wrote:

The problem here is the British & American government are ignoring their own crimes in the past and continuing to legitimize warmaking to their own population.


Someone is talking out of the wrong orifice. The US government is apologizing for everything under the sun, including Abu Ghraib. There was an apology to Native-American, to Japanese-American, African-American, to Jewish-Americans, to Irish-American. And recently even an apology to Latvians and Eastern European for Yalta.
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