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Europe, the US and the Middle East
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Seed



Joined: 04 Mar 2005
Posts: 1659

PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2005 11:50 pm    Post subject: Europe, the US and the Middle East Reply with quote

Le Saigonnais wrote:
Yeah...like deposing a democratically elected Mossadeh and putting the Shah in power, selling weapons to the Turks so they could use on the Kurds, helping the House of Saud & Mubarak to neutralize all political opponents and keep them under control fro 70 years, giving Saddam biological and chemical weapons then turning against him when he used the lesson he learned from us against us, helping the Zionists to steal and and to imprison the Palestinians....

What miserable Europeans did that?


Unfunny Extremist,

You again show your hypocracy. Nothing new here. I guess Saddam must have bought Mirage Fighters from the US. The bulk of Saudi tanks, naval vessels and other high-tech weapontries came from Europe. Saddam acquired material both from US and Europe to built his WMD. And in case you pretend not to know, Israel also prosess Mirage and AMX-13. Israel submarine came from Germany; in fact all of their naval vessels were built in European shipyards. Do you know which engine power the powerful Israel Merkava tank (the best tank in the Middle East)? Mercedes. And I guess it must be the evil US that fought along side Israel in 1956 against Egypt. And who recently suggest lifting arms embargo against a dictactorship who just opently threaten to invade a peaceful democracy? Need I show you more of your hypocracy.

The US was not the only one pumping oil out of Middle East and slept with tyrants. Our sin is collective. Except so far, the US is the only one apologized. We were all accomplices to the same crime. Now that the US changed our policy, the US became the sole bad guy.

The whole West (US & Europe) profit from the relationship with dictators. For a while it was practical (infact wise) because we all were facing thousands of nuclear warheads from the former Evil Empire or other odious enemies. The Lesser Evil Argument made sense then. But now the Evil Empire is gone, what is the excuse? Or to be practical, what is the benefit to be gain?
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Le Saigonnais



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Obviously, the truth isn't of concern to you and all the hypocrites in the current US administration. As I numerously pointed out before, the hypocrite always desires to appear to have certain qualities or beliefs. Whether or not he actually contains them isn't the issue, the only issue is him pimping himself up.

The facts are... those Mirages are French export versions back in the days when selling defensive weapons to the ME was legal to the world. All of the pre-1967 Israeli weapons came from France. After the 67 Israeli military aggression, the French government put a stop to that. It was the US who give Israel both military and economic aid- a tune of about 5 billion dollars a year eversince. During the Shah's reign from the mid 1950's to late 1970's, the Iranians were America's pals as evidenced by the fact that Iran was the only Islamic country that had F-14 Tomcats (considered to be the best in the world then) in its inventory. So were the Saudis who have only American weapons in its arsenal.

This is a side note but just so you know.... Germany indisputedly made the best machineries in the world. Even the US Army is using heavy weapons made in Germany in many of its tanks and aircraft because the US defense contractors are just not capable (I repeat, not capable) of designing and manufacturing such magnificient mechanical devices. That's a plain fact, Jack. US companies can't even build a simple mechanical structure on the new Bay bridge span in San Francisco. That's a difference between now and 30 years ago when they, not the Chinese or the Japanese, ruled the world by tackling on many challenging projects around the globe. Hmmm...come to think of it, maybe SF should commission the Vietnamese for that Bay bridge project. I am sure they will do the job ten times better for 1/100 of the cost.

The Daimler-built (not Mercedes) engine in the Israeli Merkeva is just an another engine. That engine can be used for thousand of industrial purposes from generating power for, say, a crane or a farm tractor to producing horsepower for merchant vessels. To say that Daimler was somehow supporting the war in the ME just because it is selling such engine is ludicreous and indefensible. You might just as well insult the whole New York state because the Knicks lost last night.

Europeans might have profited from weapon and industrial sales to many dictators & despots in the ME, but they were never involved in the installation of despicable regimes there.

The US not only fucks the ME but also Latin America and Southeast Asia as well. Fort Bening's School of Americas is one of the biggest places that train terrorists using your tax dollars. Of course, they are not considered to be terrorists unless they oppose US policies. Noriega was one of its graduates and was America's boy down there. Later the US later demonized him when he used his lesson he had learned on Americans.

The US supported Suharto when he invaded East Timor in the late 1970's. The US stopped all international intervention when the Indonesian dictator wiped out 70% of the population of this tiny island. When East Timor regained independence a few years ago, the US made it look like it was advocating for Timorese self-rule and democracy when in fact the US was responsible for Timorese's demises 3 decades ago.

The US allowed Pol Pot to be in power and ignored his atrocities until 2 million Cambodians (about 45 % of the country population) perished on the killing fields. It gave 100 million dollars worth of arms to the Khmer Rouge and recognized the Pol Pot regime as the legitimate government of Cambodia at the UN.

What miserable Europeans did all that?
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Seed



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another raving and ranting session that craftily avoid the issue. You still have not respond to the issue of 1956 when France and Brittain fought along side Israel against Egypt. The attempt to sell weapons to China right after it had threaten to invade Taiwan. Sorry your lie and distortion is pathetic.

You are lying when you said the Saudi has only weapons. Did you look at the current Saudi armor fleet and Saudi naval fleets. To expose your lie let me inventories the weapontry.

NAVAL:
1. Three Al Riyadh Frigates (from France to Saudi Arabia). This are extremely high-tech vesesls. They have stealth feature.
2. Three Dolphin Class Submarines (From Germany to Israel). This is the most advance attack submarine in the region.
3. Jaguar class corvettes (Germany to Israel). The Israeli call them Saar.
4. Baynuah class corvettes (France to United Arab Emirate).
5. Um Al-Maradim Class (France to Kuwait)
6. La Fayette Class (France to Saudi Arabia). known in Saudi Arabia as Sawari
7. Agosta attack submarines (France to Pakistan)

AIRFORCE:
1. Mirage 2000 (from France to Abu Dhabi, Egypt, Qatar, and Saudi Arabia). These are not the older Mirage but the newer ones.
2. Naval Europcopter (from France/Germany to every countries in the Middle East)
This do not account for items that transacted before the 90's.

ARMY
1. Roland SAM (from France to Egypt and various Gult States)
2. Mistral MANPAD (France to every wealthy Gulf States)
3. HOT anti-tank missiles (delivered both from France to Iran and Iraq while they were fighting)
4. Leclerc Maint battle tanks (From France to UAE, Saudi Arabia just recently ordered some but have not received)
5. AMX-30, AMX-40, VAB, VEXTRA (all from France) and various other armor vehicles going to every countries in the Middle East.

These are only the items that I remember. There maybe much more if someone care to research. Of course France stopped supply Israel with the old Mirage but instead help them with technology so they can build a better clones, a superior aircraft christens Kfir.
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Le Saigonnais



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Avoid what issue? You're the one with the dumbass mistake in your idiotic post. I said that a few European companies make money in the ME but Europeans don't go around installing despots and murderers in that region like the CIA and the Pentagon do. Nor have their national labs/centers for disease control ever given people like Saddam strains of biological materials to make weapons or chemical samples to be reproduced and incorporated in artillery shells. When you say something as stupid as you did, you might want to cool it on the name calling.

Regarding the Suez crisis in 56', it was because Egyptian leader Nasser wanted to nationalize/control the Suez Canal which was built by the French at great expense to facilitate commerce between the Orient and Europe. It has nothing to do with supporting Israel. Why does something this ignorant, illogical and hysterical get to be written on a fine place like AvenueViet?
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Seed



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I finally get it. Let me rework your theory.

1. Europe has and is always been self-suficient in fossil energies so they never had to work with tyrants in the Middle East.
2. Tyrants in Africa were installed by the evil American. In fact tyrant every where was installed by American. Of course Ngo Dinh Diem is not a tyrant because he was a patriot.
3. Europe were never cordial with the House of Saud or care about the their large sum of money that they spent or invest in Europe.
4. Tyrants in third world countries never vacationed in Europe. When their third world countries fell, they never ran to Europe with their criminally earned wealth and lived hapily ever there.
5. Europe always had terrible relationship with Israel. And they never pretent to reprimand Israel for being too harsh on the Palestians but at the same time selling weapons technology to Israel.

What a virtuous bunch of people!
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LadyDragon
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 10:49 pm    Post subject: I split this thread Reply with quote

This has nothing more to do with Giuliana Sgrena, but Saigonnais and Seed again going at each other on their opposing theories so I made it into a separate thread.

Just waiting for Pols and XP to come in to make the gathering of all the "usual suspects" , oops I mean usual debaters, complete super grin
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Le Saigonnais



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Location: Saigon, Sud Vietnam

PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seed wrote:


1. Europe has and is always been self-suficient in fossil energies so they never had to work with tyrants in the Middle East.


Europe has to buy fossil fuel from those tyrants but it was never responsible for those tyrants' rise to power. It was good ol' Uncle Sam who put them there so he can pump the oil out of their grounds as cheap as possible.

Quote:

2. Tyrants in Africa were installed by the evil American. In fact tyrant every where was installed by American. Of course Ngo Dinh Diem is not a tyrant because he was a patriot.


Go ask how Mobutu Seko Seko ruled imperiously for decades in the former Congo or the people of Angola whose long wars were drawn out by the CIA 's sponsorship of its tyrants.
The United States has made some 30 military interventions in and around the Caribbean in the last 100 years, many of them under Smedley Butler, a marine corps general, who summed up his career thus: I helped make Honduras “right” for American fruit companies in 1903. I helped make Mexico...safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street...I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-12. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China, I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.

That doesn't even count the Phillipines who was turned into a large whorehouse by the American military. Other recently "befriended" tyrants include Azerbaijian's Aliyev, Uzbekistan's Karimov, Kuwait's Al-Sabah, Colombia's Uribe, Pakistan's Musharaf...too many to list.

President Diem was not a tyrant. He was forced to take hard measures to fight Ho Chi Minh and to rule a country full of military idiots.

Quote:


3. Europe were never cordial with the House of Saud or care about the their large sum of money that they spent or invest in Europe.


You got that right. My new countrymen - the Swiss- wouldn't allow the Saudi royals to buy mansions along scenic Lake Leman no matter how much these guys fork out. The Saudis own about 6% of America.

Quote:

4. Tyrants in third world countries never vacationed in Europe. When their third world countries fell, they never ran to Europe with their criminally earned wealth and lived hapily ever there.


Due to the colonial ties, familiarity with European culture, and other factors, many of them do indeed choose Europe for their final destination.

Quote:

5. Europe always had terrible relationship with Israel. And they never pretent to reprimand Israel for being too harsh on the Palestians but at the same time selling weapons technology to Israel.


More loads of craps...because you made it sound like the Europeans are forcing Israel to buy their weapon technology.

It is more like Israel not keeping its relationship with Europe. Israel is cold to the Russians so it can't buy anything from Mother Russia. US technology is prohibitedly expensive and politically dependent. So Israel has to buy weapon technology from European firms. As simple as that....

Quote:

What a virtuous bunch of people!


Indeed...higher education, better standard of living, better efficiency. They don't go to war anymore so their economies are getting better all the time. It only costs the EU 1% of its GNP to run its administration, a far cry from the $43 trillion cost of running the US Federal government.

Meanwhile religion and stupidity infuse the US government and America sent its soldiers to march in four corners of the world....
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Seed



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your political theory is hilarious. More on Unfunny Extremist political theory:

6. Europe and the US never seen eyes-to on foreign policy. They alway had disagreement, long before the Iraq War. They never had common military strategy.
They never had common diplomatic strategy concerning the Cold War, the Middle East or anything else.

7. Europe play absolutely no part in the establishment of a Jewish Homeland.

8. The House of Saud and Mubarak never receive red carpet state reception in Europe. In fact, they were never welcom in Europe. And European head of state never visit Cairo and Ryadh.
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Le Saigonnais



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seed wrote:


6. Europe and the US never seen eyes-to on foreign policy. They alway had disagreement, long before the Iraq War. They never had common military strategy.
They never had common diplomatic strategy concerning the Cold War, the Middle East or anything else.

7. Europe play absolutely no part in the establishment of a Jewish Homeland.

8. The House of Saud and Mubarak never receive red carpet state reception in Europe. In fact, they were never welcom in Europe. And European head of state never visit Cairo and Ryadh.


Are you claiming to know my thoughts, Seed? After exchanging many courteous posts with you, I'm now convinced you're a stiffass nosepicker who comes here not to discuss politics but to be a big pain in the butt to anyone who is perceived to be "more knowledgeable" and "cooler" than you...

Now, go finish your Coco puffs like your mom told you to do so.
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Seed



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

La Saigonnais: I am so cool. In fact, I am the coolest person in the world. I am very knowledgable too. I am an expert in every subjects. Name it, I know everything about Lebanon. I know more than people who live there. Of course, everyone else are idiots. They must be. They disagree with me.

[Singing: Music I feel pretty, Oh so pretty, I feel pretty and witty and bright, ...... I feel pretty, Oh so pretty. That the city should give me its key. A committee Should be organized to honor me. Music ]

Oh my God!! He actually think he is "cool." Wow! He must not know that the prerequisite to "coolness" is a sense of humour.
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