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Peter Pettigrew, the Marauders and Secret Keepers
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Proud Puff



Joined: 30 Jul 2009
Posts: 200
Location: Hufflepuff House

PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 8:48 pm    Post subject: How did Wormtail end up in Gryffindor? Reply with quote

How come the Sorting Hat put Pettigrew in Gryffindor? He wasn't brave, he wasn't loyal to his friends. He betrayed them to save his own skin.

IMO it wasn't brave to cut off his own hand, Voldemort would have done worse to him if he hadn't. He had the promise of a new one anyway. Being able to withstand pain is not being brave. He was craven in that scene in the Shrieking Shack, groveling and begging for his life.

His cunning should have put him in Slytherin, IMO. He did have one ambition: staying alive. Also always being with the strongest so as to protect his precious skin. That's an ambition of sorts, being part of the strongest and/or most popular group.

He was smart, yes, but not the kind of smart that lands you in Ravenclaw. He certainly didn't belong in Hufflepuff. He should have been in Slytherin, but then the other three Marauders would never have befriended him so he would never have been able to betray the Potters.
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The single best word to describe Hufflepuff is not loyal or patient or honest ... much less simple. It's STRONG. Like the earth. Hufflepuff may not always win ... but they refuse to lose. Beat them down ... they come back. As long as one Hufflepuff is still standing, they'll pull all the rest back to their feet. Attack one of them and you've made an enemy of all of them.
The last witch or wizard standing will be from that House.
THESE are the values of Hufflepuff.
From Minisinoo's "Hufflepuff House"
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Romione



Joined: 28 May 2009
Posts: 75

PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:16 am    Post subject: Re: How did Wormtail end up in Gryffindor? Reply with quote

Hedwig wrote:
So when LV entrusted the diary to the Malfoys, was he expecting to run into trouble? How come he trusted the Malfoys so much? Actually, I guess he trusted Bellatrix more than he did Lucius and Narcissa. It was in Bellatrix's vault that the Trio found the Hufflepuff Cup. Supposedly he had to entrust his treasured possessions to someone who had a Gringotts vault (which the Gaunts were too poor to afford, I guess) or had somewhere safe, like Malfoy Manor, to keep them. Though he did leave the ring in the old Gaunt cottage.


I don't think Voldemort was expecting trouble specifically. He wanted to hide the Horcruxes and he didn't tell anyone that he had made Horcruxes because they kept him alive. As Dumbledore said, Voldemort was always on the lookout for enemies and didn't really trust anyone. Lucius and Bellatrix never new what they had. Voldemort gave the cup to Bellatrix because the Lestrange vault at Gringotts was highly secured and I think Harry was right that he liked having something of his at Gringotts because he had never had a vault of his own there - being poor in his youth and all. But it does not appear that he ever told Bellatrix what it was.

Giving the diary to Lucius was more about the plan to use it to re-open the Chamber - that was the one Horcrux Voldemort didn't protect because he planned to use it. And I think he knew there would be a risk of it getting destroyed. I think that's part of why he was so furious with Lucius for carrying out that plan without being instructed to do so. He felt a seven part soul would make him more powerful and Lucius got one part destroyed at a time when he had been weakened.

Quote:
What also puzzles me is how all those purebloods came under the power and spell of a half-blood and followed him so slavishly, when they logically would have looked down on him for having a Muggle father, who was, to boot, tricked into begetting him.

All those purebloods willing to take punishment, including the Cruciatus, from a half-blood... Or from anyone for that matter. They must all have been masochists to stick with him. Rolling Eyes


Well, this was partly addressed in HBP. They would accept half-bloods who had a pure-blood parent and believed the pure-blood ideology. What Voldemort had going for him was the fact that his mother was not only a pure-blood, she was also one of the last descendents of Salazar Slytherin. He used his ancestor's notoriety to build his own. And he was one of the most powerful wizards around - I think only Dumbledore and Grindelwald would have been more powerful than Voldemort. The Death Eaters rallied around him as their leader because he told them what they wanted to hear. They feared him because he was so powerful - which also made them believe he could get them what they wanted.

I think it's rather ironic because Voldemort was proof that the pure-blood ideology was wrong - and he knew it. He only adopted that ideology to gain support from people like the Malfoys and the Blacks who believed in it. But none of the Death Eaters who believed in the pure-blood ideology realized that. I love irony like that.

Proud Puff wrote:
How come the Sorting Hat put Pettigrew in Gryffindor? He wasn't brave, he wasn't loyal to his friends. He betrayed them to save his own skin.

IMO it wasn't brave to cut off his own hand, Voldemort would have done worse to him if he hadn't. He had the promise of a new one anyway. Being able to withstand pain is not being brave. He was craven in that scene in the Shrieking Shack, groveling and begging for his life.

His cunning should have put him in Slytherin, IMO. He did have one ambition: staying alive. Also always being with the strongest so as to protect his precious skin. That's an ambition of sorts, being part of the strongest and/or most popular group.

He was smart, yes, but not the kind of smart that lands you in Ravenclaw. He certainly didn't belong in Hufflepuff. He should have been in Slytherin, but then the other three Marauders would never have befriended him so he would never have been able to betray the Potters.


I agree that Pettigrew did not have the level of intelligence that would fit for Ravenclaw and he certainly was not hard working or loyal so he wouldn't fit into Hufflepuff. But I don't think he would really fit into Slytherin either. I wouldn't consider the desire to stay alive an ambition really. Not the type of power hungry ambition ascribed to Slytherin house. Pettigrew was cunning, but he was also content to be the low man on the totem pole and get kicked around as long as he was allowed to live. He wasn't trying to attain wealth or power or fame. He wasn't on his way to greatness - as the Sorting Hat mentioned to Harry in PS/SS. Pettigrew was merely existing and willing to let people treat him like dirt to go on existing. That doesn't say Slytherin to me because I think it takes more than being cunning to be a Slytherin.

I do think it did take courage to cut off his own hand - even with the fear of something worse being done to him by Voldemort because he did that to himself. Voldemort couldn't feel the pain he was causing to Pettigrew where Pettigrew could feel the pain he was causing himself, but he carried on with that. It also took courage for him to go undercover and spy on his friends - particularly knowing how they would react and what they would do if they caught him. It took courage for him to confront Sirius face to face when he set him up to take the fall - particularly with him knowing that Sirius was the better dueler and that Sirius knew the truth.

Courage is not always something good. It takes courage to do bad things as well. That's why Draco couldn't kill Dumbledore on the tower in HBP - he lacked the courage it takes to kill someone face to face when the situation wasn't going exactly as he planned it to. What Pettigrew lacked was the nobility that would enable him to use his courage to do good things. He was selfish and put himself first. And I think he did consider himself a coward because of that, but he didn't really care as long as he kept himself alive. That was a similarity between Pettigrew and Neville, but what made the difference was that Neville did have nobility and that enabled him to realize his own courage and use it to do good things.

Taking all that into consideration, I think Pettigrew was sorted into Gryffindor simply because he did not truly fit in anywhere. Out of all the traits given for the four houses at Hogwarts, the only one Pettigrew had in any capacity was courage - and even that was limited. Gryffindor was the only place to put him I think.

Another factor is Pettigrew's blood status - we don't know if he was pure-blood, half-blood, or muggleborn. If he was muggleborn, that would probably keep him out of Slytherin because the Sorting Hat was magically bound to sort the students based on what the founders wanted and Salazar Slytherin did not want muggleborns in his house. I still don't think being cunning would be enough for him to fit - but he didn't truly fit into Gryffindor either so that's certainly a possibility.
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The Shuttle



Joined: 17 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 11:03 pm    Post subject: Re: How did Wormtail end up in Gryffindor? Reply with quote

Romione wrote:
Another factor is Pettigrew's blood status - we don't know if he was pure-blood, half-blood, or muggleborn. If he was muggleborn, that would probably keep him out of Slytherin because the Sorting Hat was magically bound to sort the students based on what the founders wanted and Salazar Slytherin did not want muggleborns in his house. I still don't think being cunning would be enough for him to fit - but he didn't truly fit into Gryffindor either so that's certainly a possibility.

I can't know for sure of course but I have a feeling he was pureblood. Possibly half-blood, but I don't see him at all as muggleborn. I'm not sure Voldemort would have taken him on if he'd been muggleborn. Practically all of the Death Eaters are pureblood, as far as I can tell. Snape, of course, is half-blood, as is Voldemort himself. But they are exceptionally gifted half-bloods. Voldemort wouldn't take on any half-blood who wasn't a talented wizard or witch, imo. But he'd take incompetent purebloods like the Carrows just because of their blood status. That's what, to me, comes out of the whole DE set-up.
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Griffiegirl



Joined: 17 Mar 2008
Posts: 55
Location: Gryffindor Common Room

PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 11:28 pm    Post subject: Re: How did Wormtail end up in Gryffindor? Reply with quote

Proud Puff wrote:
How come the Sorting Hat put Pettigrew in Gryffindor? He wasn't brave, he wasn't loyal to his friends. He betrayed them to save his own skin.

That's a case of Mis-Sorting by the Hat IMO. Or a plot ploy by Jo. As has been said before, she needed the traitor to be close enough to James and Lily to get their trust. They'd never have made a Slytherin their Secret Keeper, even if they had (unlikely as it is) befriended one.

About Sorting, what do you think about Gilderoy Lockart possibly having been a Ravenclaw?
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Strawberry07



Joined: 06 Jun 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 6:50 am    Post subject: Re: How did Wormtail end up in Gryffindor? Reply with quote

I think Romione makes a good point about how Peter ended up in Gryffindor by default, essentially. I imagine he was not the only character sorted by default. Gryffindor was the House Peter was least unsuitable for, and surely others with inexplicable Sortings were in the same boat - like Crabbe and Goyle, like Zacharias Smith.



The Shuttle wrote:
Romione wrote:
Another factor is Pettigrew's blood status - we don't know if he was pure-blood, half-blood, or muggleborn. If he was muggleborn, that would probably keep him out of Slytherin because the Sorting Hat was magically bound to sort the students based on what the founders wanted and Salazar Slytherin did not want muggleborns in his house. I still don't think being cunning would be enough for him to fit - but he didn't truly fit into Gryffindor either so that's certainly a possibility.

I can't know for sure of course but I have a feeling he was pureblood. Possibly half-blood, but I don't see him at all as muggleborn. I'm not sure Voldemort would have taken him on if he'd been muggleborn. Practically all of the Death Eaters are pureblood, as far as I can tell. Snape, of course, is half-blood, as is Voldemort himself. But they are exceptionally gifted half-bloods. Voldemort wouldn't take on any half-blood who wasn't a talented wizard or witch, imo. But he'd take incompetent purebloods like the Carrows just because of their blood status. That's what, to me, comes out of the whole DE set-up.



In Peter Pettigrew's case, I don't think Voldemort would have cared about blood status - he needed someone close to the Potters, and Pettigrew was the weak link, the one who gave him the goods and turned on his friends. Although, I doubt he would have given a Muggleborn the "honour" of the Dark Mark.

I totally agree with what you say about Voldemort accepting incompetent purebloods, but only exceptionally skilled half bloods. It's yet another example of how messed up and hypocritical their organisation was.



GriffieGirl, I think Lockhart may have been a Gryffindor. I think we need a DADA villain from each House - Quirrell was Ravenclaw - intelligence used in the wrong way. Barty Jr.may have been Hufflepuff -loyalty used in the wrong way. Umbridge, I think, was a Slytherin -ambition used in the wrong way. Lockhart, doesn't seem to have had much courage, but he wanted to be seen as brave. Plus, it takes a certain kind of courage to attack powerful witches and wizards that have defeated all kinds of threats and emerged victorious from all kinds of dangerous situations.
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Winterfell



Joined: 04 Nov 2012
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Location: Westeros

PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 12:39 pm    Post subject: Re: How did Wormtail end up in Gryffindor? Reply with quote

Strawberry07 wrote:
GriffieGirl, I think Lockhart may have been a Gryffindor. I think we need a DADA villain from each House - Quirrell was Ravenclaw - intelligence used in the wrong way. Barty Jr.may have been Hufflepuff -loyalty used in the wrong way. Umbridge, I think, was a Slytherin -ambition used in the wrong way. Lockhart, doesn't seem to have had much courage, but he wanted to be seen as brave. Plus, it takes a certain kind of courage to attack powerful witches and wizards that have defeated all kinds of threats and emerged victorious from all kinds of dangerous situations.

Neat idea, there, that all the DaDA teachers came from different Houses. But IMO, Quirrell and Lockhart could switch Houses. Lockhart was smart enough to be in Ravenclaw, and he certainly wasn't brave. Quirrell was braver than he looked, and he doesn't come across as that smart.

Lockhart didn't attack these witches and wizards, he picked their brains, then Obliviated them. That doesn't take much courage. And he packed his bags to flee the minute he was sent to fight the basilisk. Not exactly brave behaviour.
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Strawberry07



Joined: 06 Jun 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 1:59 pm    Post subject: Re: How did Wormtail end up in Gryffindor? Reply with quote

Winterfell wrote:

Neat idea, there, that all the DaDA teachers came from different Houses. But IMO, Quirrell and Lockhart could switch Houses. Lockhart was smart enough to be in Ravenclaw, and he certainly wasn't brave. Quirrell was braver than he looked, and he doesn't come across as that smart.


According to Pottermore, Quirrell was a Ravenclaw. I don't see him as all that brave and we are told that he was intelligent when it came to learning and to theory. He was smart enough to track down Voldemort, when no others had done so. (Curiously enough, Wormtail also managed this, though he had something Quirrell did not - help from the rats who told him of a dark shadow that killed small creatures.)

I don't think Lockhart was all that smart. There was only one spell he was really proficient in, and he couldn't even deal with a bunch of pixies. But I will say that e had great marketing skills, for a certain audience.

Quote:
Lockhart didn't attack these witches and wizards, he picked their brains, then Obliviated them. That doesn't take much courage. And he packed his bags to flee the minute he was sent to fight the basilisk. Not exactly brave behaviour.


He had to take them on to Obliviate them - knowing that they were capable of jinxing him senseless and having him arrested if he didn't time his moves right or get them exactly right first time. Running was cowardly, but then, Wormtail did a lot of cowardly things, too. He chose to live as a DE punching bag rather than live or die as a free man with a clear conscience.
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Winterfell



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:10 pm    Post subject: Re: How did Wormtail end up in Gryffindor? Reply with quote

Strawberry07 wrote:
Quote:
Lockhart didn't attack these witches and wizards, he picked their brains, then Obliviated them. That doesn't take much courage. And he packed his bags to flee the minute he was sent to fight the basilisk. Not exactly brave behaviour.

He had to take them on to Obliviate them - knowing that they were capable of jinxing him senseless and having him arrested if he didn't time his moves right or get them exactly right first time.

Not necessarily. I think he took them by surprise. There he was, interviewing them, maybe having a drink together or just a little chat, then once they told him how they managed, probably pleased to have an admiring audience, he whipped out his wand and Obliviated them. He had the spell down to perfection. They had their guard down, probably put their wands in their pockets - anyway IMO they didn't have it in their hands. By the time they realized they needed to protect themselves it was too late. At least that's how I see it.

Quote:
Running was cowardly, but then, Wormtail did a lot of cowardly things, too. He chose to live as a DE punching bag rather than live or die as a free man with a clear conscience.

True, that's why IMO he didn't belong in Gryffindor. Neither courage nor loyalty. Though the latter is a Puff trait, most Gryffs display great loyalty to their friends and their cause.
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Proud Puff



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:51 pm    Post subject: Re: How did Wormtail end up in Gryffindor? Reply with quote

Winterfell wrote:
Quote:
Running was cowardly, but then, Wormtail did a lot of cowardly things, too. He chose to live as a DE punching bag rather than live or die as a free man with a clear conscience.

True, that's why IMO he didn't belong in Gryffindor. Neither courage nor loyalty. Though the latter is a Puff trait, most Gryffs display great loyalty to their friends and their cause.

He certainly didn't belong with us in Hufflepuff!!!! The very thought!!!!

What I think is that it was a plot ploy by JKR. She HAD to put him in Gryffindor for him to get close to the Potters. That would allow him to betray them later. They'd never have made a Slytherin their Secret Keeper.
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The single best word to describe Hufflepuff is not loyal or patient or honest ... much less simple. It's STRONG. Like the earth. Hufflepuff may not always win ... but they refuse to lose. Beat them down ... they come back. As long as one Hufflepuff is still standing, they'll pull all the rest back to their feet. Attack one of them and you've made an enemy of all of them.
The last witch or wizard standing will be from that House.
THESE are the values of Hufflepuff.
From Minisinoo's "Hufflepuff House"
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